Hello,

I'm in the middle of rebuilding my '86 22re and I'm gathering experience and opinions on the type of bearings to use. There's lots of good brands out there, but I've been told the bearing material is just as important.

I'm going under the suggestions of an experienced mechanic where I live who's been building race and street cars for as long as I've been alive. He suggested using lead babbitt type bearings over aluminum tin as they are softer and have better embedding properties over the latter. Plus, they are more "forgiving" to a crankshaft that's not been turned. I'm not having my crank turned because the journals are in excellent shape still and the oil clearances are still rather tight. So, I just need some bearings, but I want to get good ones, ya know? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading over lots of info and manufacturers claims about their designs and materials and it seems everyone's hot on the aluminum tin alloy type. The claims, of course, is that are a big improvement over the tri metal/babbitt. Kind bearings are a prime example. I know that engnbldr sells that brand, but don't know what materials the ones they sell are made of. The local stores around here are rather limited....most can't tell me what their bearings are made of and only one I've found has the babbitt....Clevite brand.

I'd like to make a decision by Fri. so I can buy something and have the crankcase back together by next week, but I'm in a quandry. If anyone would care to offer some advice based on their experiences, I would love to hear it.

Thank you,
Matthew

Just my 2 cents but I would go with the oem style. Babbitt style bearings are an older technology. I am sure that they are easier on the crank (they are lead) but from what I've heard they don't last as long. '50s era chevy inline six engines had them. They were splash lubricated. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> I am sure EB has experience with them. No, I'm not going to make a reference to his age. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I'm sure Ted would laugh, anyway.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've heard they last quite a while....150k easy. I've also heard....and read....they have a higher loading capacity...specifically the Clevite tri-metal technology.

Here's the website:
http://mahleclevite.com/p_heavyduty_bearings.asp

We all know about industry claims, but it seems to stand up in the real world as far as other things I read on the internet. But....what have you heard and from where?

By OEM, I take it you mean going to Toyota? Do you know how much those puppies cost? Ouch! Can't do it, man. They are good, though. Saved my crank...this time.

>>>*There are still a lot of engine builders who prefer the old lead babbit technology. In it's day that did the job.

The problem is there is almost no source, the material is not legal for USA production. Someone can explain to me why it can be imported, I don't know.

The reason is simply, our hot tanks became hazardous waste from lead in the solution. It cost us $3000 every six months to have it picked up.

Now we test and what you flush down a typical john daily is more hazardous than our used hot tank solution. Treat it to 7ph and dump it.

King Bearings are Israeli made, and contain a small amount of lead. That is known as Alecular, lead is even being phased out of that, also. Clevite used to be Clevite 77, then it was Michigan 77, then Clevite brand again with the 77 logo. Now I believe Mahle has a piece of that action.

That company has used TM-1 material for ages now, no lead at all except in certain high performance bearings.

Federal Mogul used to supply primarily steel backed aluminum, I am not sure on that anymore, haven't used them for years. Last time was in my Dragster engine, they worked fine.

ACL is a good brand, but most of the sub labels supply King in their box, same as we do. It is now proven to be a good piece.

Now if you really are serious, try to find the SI bearings. I know that King is making that for the Mitsubishi engines to take 30# boost and more. That is a machined silicon alloy and will take around 1100 degrees, everything else is done around 660 degrees or so. They do look funny, though. Some folks send them back thinking they are defective because of the sideways cut on them.

Of course if you get the bearing heat to 660 degrees you usually don't care about the bearing anymore, it's crankshaft time.

I tried to contract with King to make the 22RE bearings in SI material, they wanted me to purchase 500 of each size to do the production run.

I don't have that kind of capital laying around.

I should have went for it...Like I told the wife, there is always her IRA... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />...

I have just one brand I refuse to use, that is ITM. Just personal choice there from some poor experiences, I suspect they are fine too most of the time.

I do know one thing, the racers that are serious are using King...The other brands are just stickers they put on their cars for comp money.

(I have done that myself....*shhhh....)

*See? Told ya I was prejudiced....*LOL**....*EB

By oem I meant design not supplier.<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> I don't have overly deep pockets either (my girlfriend makes sure of that <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />) .I looked at the link and I'm sure they are quality pieces. They are highly engineered and Clevite is a good brand. I don't pretend to know half of what Ted does though.

Thanks gentlemen.

Okay...why do you suggestion OEM design and what's the difference?

So, Ted, I take it then, from every source I'm tapping, that there's a lof of good bearings out there to choose from, and even though some might consider one type/brand better than the other it boils down to preference to an extent. I mean, if serious racers are all going to King there must be some reason, but as you said some builders still like the lead babbit. The mechanic who's helping me with this rebuild has been racing for many years. He still uses the lead babbit bearings in his dragster. He likes them and they obviously do the job.

But, in any case, why? Aside from any toxic sludge factor, what are the pros/cons of either that you've seen from experience in building and racing engines? I'm sure you've seen a lot and have your reasons.

I'm willing to bet they can be imported because manufacturer's can have them produced in someone else's backyard (for less, of course) and skirt any U.S. regulations and/or save themselves the expense of the dealing with the production waste. Maybe? Who cares another country gets sick? It doesn't affect us, right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" /> Well, except the profit margins.....

I've used Ted's bearings on two forced induction projects now, one below 200hp, est 160-170, and one at or above 200hp. I can't say I've put 100k miles on either one of them and then torn them down for inspection, but the 1st motor was torn down at several times between 5-20k miles - bearings and crank looked great.

Note, the crank was properly polished on motor #1 and properly turned / polished on motor #2.

I'm sure they did. I read alot of testimonials to the same. Thanks.

I learned today that the original Toyota bearings are the lead babbit material. Fingernail easily scratcheth the surface!

Went ahead and ordered some Clevites at the local NAPA...also lead babbit/trimetal. Saved me some shipping and down time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the replies. I was hoping to get more of a discussion, but oh well...I'm sure there's more interesting things to talk about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Take care.

>>>*Lead babbit used to be the only bearing material. Like I said, in it's day, it did the job.

Now realize that we were dealing with engines that made less and one horsepower per cubic inch, we were well into the late 60's before that goal was reached.

Modern engine designs make this a normal situation.

Lead was phased out because it was discovered that lead affects our youngun's brains, which might explain a few things as I look around at our world....*LOL**..

Carcinogin too, ranked as an "Exquisite Carginogin". Nasty stuff.

Normally we can tell a "bad" bearing. We take it out of the box and see a defect. Then we go get another one.

Pro's and con's are easy. That usually isn't the quality of the part, it is misboxed items, lamination flaws, suppliers that won't handle problems. Most of the problems we have seen over the years are that type, not failure in service. We get rare cases of packing errors with our own brand but the percentage is so much lower that we stay faithful. If there is a flaw in the product folks have our phone number which is the way I want it.

The factory has a good product, good marketing and they take care of their customers. So when they make a sale, they have earned their customer's trust. I do not think Toyota makes bearings, though. Once a vehicle is out of warrenty, dealerships can supply from the open market and do.

I know. Dealerships are some of my best customers. Not bearings, though. Mostly gaskets, timing kits, covers etc. Most dealerships won't rebulld an engine, they will just buy one and swing it in.

Another thing I am sure of, having sold quite a few engines to local area dealers. That is interesting, good folks making sure they get a "factory" reman, not knowing guys like me down the street built it.

Our own Rainier city council paid a tad over $6k for a "special" police 360 Dodge replacement engine. I built that one myself for the dealership for $2900. Just marketing, way it is. BTW, the cops loved that one, I made a couple of mods while I was in there, couldn't help myself... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..

So my advice is to find a supplier you like and trust at a price you like, then check everything. No matter the "brand" they will work fine....*EB

57 chevy 283 rochester fuelie - 283 hp......1st one that made it in production...