So here is the story - I have a good amount of $ coming my way soon and was planning on buying a Jeep Wrangler <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a SAS on my 98 Rodeo. I am looking for a little advice on a few things. I plan on 35 inch tires.

Is $6,000 reasonable for a SAS? Including having a Tera Low installed in the x-fer, but doing the bulk of the work myself (I would have to re-gear the rear to at least 4.88:1 and possibly higher)

If I want a high pinion axle is a FJ80 axle my best (only) choice? (pass drop & correct width)
Steering is my big concern, will I have to replace my factory pump? Is a Toyota IFS steering box a good choice?

I am considering SUA with shackle reversal to keep lift amount down but still have OK flex - thoughts and concerns about this setup?

For the rear end I am planning in using the factory lower trailing links, taking off the upper links and rewelding on the frame for one (longer) upper link. I would just re-use all of the connection points on the axle. Then I would have a 3 link with a panhard bar. Thoughts about this setup?

I am planning a similiar lift and I too am concerned about the steering. From what I gather so far in my research, the options are either stay stock or go with a GM steering box. Looking at INDY4x site, I see these two as the only options as well. My question is; at what level of lift does it become necessary or advantages to replace the stock steering? Can us guys who want a rock crawling daily driver stay with our steering setup or are we just leaving in a weak link that we will have to replace anyway.

Thank You

Is $6,000 reasonable for a SAS? Including having a Tera Low installed in the x-fer, but doing the bulk of the work myself (I would have to re-gear the rear to at least 4.88:1 and possibly higher)

I would say absolutly... And wouldnt be too suprised if you got away under that amount, unless your counting bigger tires...

If I want a high pinion axle is a FJ80 axle my best (only) choice? (pass drop & correct width)
Steering is my big concern, will I have to replace my factory pump? Is a Toyota IFS steering box a good choice?

Well, you could narrow a dana 60, 44, or maybe even a Yota Axle, and have some custom chromoly shafts made. Or some companys make completly new, ready to bolt up custom axles.... Dynatrac is one, i if I remember correctly...

I am considering SUA with shackle reversal to keep lift amount down but still have OK flex - thoughts and concerns about this setup?

Well, Im SUA, and have the shackels up front... I used some rancho 44044 leaf springs, and I was actually amazed with how much flex I got, I mean I knew It would be a big difference over IFS, but its HUUGE! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />

Im not sure what the oil-pans are like on the 2nd gens, but I know with SUA, and shackel reversal, it can get pretty tight under a first gen...

$6000 could be over, or under budget depending on what you want. For a typical d44 with leaves up front swap, 6000 would be great. You can probably get it done for half that, but its good to budget over for when you find out you need a x97 widget overnight shipped from Japan. Search for a post by Randii with keywords +sas and +budget, he outlines a general budget pretty well. In fact, just search for +sas and read every post for research.

If you need inspiration/ what yours could look like, Trav has done a very nice conversion on his 98, heres his web page.

Just to add an additional note, you can narrow axles while staying away from custom parts all-together. For example, a full width Chevy D44 can be narrowed to accept waggy D44 long side axle shafts (IIRC). Not custom parts needed. Just something to consider in your quest for an axle.


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Christian -- welcome the the funnest part of the SAS, IMHO -- researching and planning! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Start by pulling together the folks who've been there and done that: Corbin did a coil-sprung Dana 44 on his Amigo, Michael did a coil-sprung Dana 60 on his Amigo, and Travis did a Dana 44 on his Rodeo.

You can do an SAS for well under $6K, but it all depends on your fabrication skills, tools, and knowledge, as well as your scrounging skills. If you can do most of it on your own, sure... if you need much help, that will spend fast, especially with regearing the diffs and the t-case.

I like the FJ80 axle for width and strength, but you also can put the high-pinion FJ80 in a Toyota mini-truck housing, if a full 80 axle is hard to find. You can also run a high-pinion Dana 44, though this is a good bit more custom to make with a passenger-side drop.

Steering is a big challenge -- you've got two pieces to think of: steering pump and steering box. Your stock steering pump can be modified to work with a different steering box, though I don't recall whether that worked out well or not. The bigger challenge is removing the rack and pinion and putting a steering box on the frame rail in such a way that it doesn't interfere with the motor oil pan and accessory dress, but still allows steering links to actuate the steering throughout the full range of travel. FWIW, there are MANY ways to skin this cat -- among them are Isuzu first-gen IFS, Toyota IFS, Scout, or Jeep boxes and GM, Isuzu, or stock car pumps. LOTS of solutions, and Toy IFS box with Saginaw pump is just the most common.

I haven't seen a leaf-sprung second-gen yet, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. IIRC the challenge is that the frame rails have very little arch in them. Running the shackles up front may be the best way to work around this. Shackle reversal generally means shackles toward the back -- which were you planning?

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're proposing for the rear suspension -- I'd suggest that you do one end at a time and see if you can just work with the stock rear suspension. The stock Isuzu 4-link with track bar works pretty well and distribute the load nicely... consider that going with a 3-link setup REALLY concentrates the upper link loads.

Randii

if $6k is your budget, i'd consider pulling in some outside help and doing a link suspension w/ coils/coilovers up front. especially since you have a 2nd gen and already have the rear suspension to match.

as its been said, a leaf sprung SAS will come in under $6k, even if you farm out all the work. do the work yourself, and you'll only tap maybe half that budget.

-Rob

Thanks guys.

My first email made me sound a little more green and scattered than I am. My skill set is OK, I've rebuilt the top end of engines a few times in my life, I install all of my own stereo equipment etc. I was one of the first to use OME springs to do a CP lift, I did my own 1" body lift, I have a Lincoln MIG welder (110V) I have a metal band saw, grinder and other tools. I also have access to a plasma cutter and a 220V Miller MIG. What I am trying to say is I am a moderate wrencher. I can not set up gears and would probably have someone install the Tera Low gears for me, all other work would be done by me and friends. By the way, Campbell Ent. is 2 blocks from my house, and Randy Ellis is only about 25 minutes away.

The $6K number would include buying tires, axle, springs, steering components, Tera Lows, and front locker.

I want a HP axle to try to lessen the front drive shaft angle, something that seams to hang people up when trying to complete SAS's on these Isuzus. I know most people go with Dana 44s, but as stated before, I would have to customize one to get HP or spend $$$ to have one built.

The reason I question the steering pump is I thought during someone's SAS on a 2nd gen they found that the pumps don't have enough pressure or can't pump enough volume.

Like I stated before, I was originally going to buy a Wrangler, but I like the room I have in my Rodeo, I like the engine, trans, and general driving of my Rodeo, I like the thought of having something different, and I like the fact of spending $6k on a SAS rather than spending $13K + on a Wrangler (original plan).

This would be a 3rd vehicle for us so it would not be a DD but would be driven on the road.

I was thinking about using YJ springs, they are a little shorter than the Waggi 4044 which will give up a little flex, but will help in moving the axle forward and I can probably find about any reasonable spring rate I want. I am doing leaf springs to keep things as simple as possible. Howeverif I go with a FJ80 axle I will have to cut off the coil spring buckets and weld on spring purches. But this has to be easier than designing a 3 or 4 link front end.

I guess my big concern is becoming the rear suspension, I will have to look up Corbin and Travis up to see what they did I know Corbin has been through a couple iterations on his rear, in addition I will have to bother Dan H (also lives near me).

Hey Christian,

For the front driveshaft angles, yes, the HP diff will help. You could also stick with a low pinion and use radius arms / coils, or leaves with shackles up front. Either one will lessen the travel needed in a front driveshaft.

As for which axle... The 80 series is definitely my choice (real surprise there, eh?). It is expensive. But, by the time you get a HP44 modified / retubed for your use, I don't think the difference would be all that much. Plus, a stock 80 series axle/birfs is definitely much stronger than stock 44 components. When I was doing the research a couple years ago, the common conception was that 80 series stuff was much closer to D60 in strength than to a D44. There are now upgraded shafts (Poly Performance) and birfs (Longfield) for the 80 series as well, so the 44 has nothing over the 80 series in upgradability.

[segway] Bobby has posted test results of the new 4340/300M 80 series birfields and his own 4340 shafts on IH8MUD. The inner shaft failed at about the same lb/ft as the 35 spline Dana 60 shafts. I think Poly's shafts are a better and stronger design and will take that even higher since it is not the birf that is failing. I don't know if Bobby has done similar testing with angles in the joint though. At 35 degrees, the Dana 60 u-joints may have the edge over the birfs. Can's say for sure.[/segway]

Don't know much about the HP44 options, other than you'll have to re-tube to use them. There's also custom 8" Toy housings from Front Range Offroad. This will be the most expensive route, but definitely the strongest (for Toy housings anyways) and you can get *exactly* what you want. This is the housing only, you'll need diff, shafts, birfs and outer knuckles/brakes for a complete axle.


If you want to come over and take a look at the FJ80 axle before you decide, you're welcome to. My truck is sitting without a motor in it right now. Also, if you want to bring your t-case over, I can do (or help you with) the Tera install. It's really not that bad, especially with the t-case on the bench instead of under the truck. It's much easier than setting up gears in a diff.

--Dan

I talked to a few places about having my Ford HP44 retubed, and was quoted $350-500 depending on who did it. Of course, prices my be different where you guys are..... but when I heard that, my immediate thought was <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />