Hey guys,
So I've got my engine done [85 22R], and the ignition timing is advanced like 45 deg! btdc.
*Actually, now that I think about it, it's more like 90deg. No lie. The damn mark is on the side of the pulley!*
This is with the engine at ~800 rpms, vac advance cut.
I've already looked inside the dist. Everything seems to be alright. When I turn the post by hand, it pops back when I let go of it. Air gap is in spec. The ignitor/coil check out ok.

*Forgot, the dist is retarded as far as it will go, also*

Anyone have any ideas why it's so advanced?

I have a EB OS head, EB 470deg cam, OS valves, Weber 32/36 [that I think needs new jets].
No vaccum leaks that I can find.

Thanks for any help. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

Was the engine at TDC when you put the distributor back on?

yes. Had everything lined up. #1 tdc, rotor pointed at #1 point. Timing marks lined up.
Triple checked it, cause I've never messed with one of these before.

What about the weights inside the dist?

Keep in mind that TDC on the pully isnt always TDC. Your crank goes around 2 times to every one rotation of the cam. So even if your pully is at TDC you need to look and make sure your cam is in the right position. Both valves should be completly closed on a compression stroke and not at the end of its exhaust stroke starting an intake stroke. If you are confusing the TDC compression position with the other position then your distributor in theory need to be rotated 180 deg to get the timming right. Im not sure how far the dist will turn but if you COULD turn it exactly half way around looking at what you have now do you think that would fix it? If so you need to pull the dist and valve cover then get it back to TDC with both valves closed then re-insert the Dist.


I guess if both valves are in the closed position when everything points to TDC currently then I have no idea on a 22r.

yes, as Ganoid said and speaking under the assumption that the timing mark on the crank is showing TDC, ignition timing is only a matter of cam position, not the crank position. there is only up or down for the piston. compression or exhaust stroke is controlled by valve position.

a quick question -- before you started messing with it, was your timing showing correct or was it always screwy? not sure if this is possible, but I read once that the actual pulley can rotate on the balancer, though I'm not sure how, or whether that's even possible on ours, but all else being correct, that may explain the 45* or 90* off.

BUT, everything being okay, it's not probable for your timing to be that far off without overlooking something somewhere.

go over it again.
rotate your crank to TDC.
pull the valve cover and look at the cam again to make sure it's in the proper position, as well -- timing mark just left of the 12 o'clock position.
then install the distributor.

if it's still off at that point, I'd look at how you're installing the distributor, because you're most likely off a couple of teeth.

the way I install the distributor is to kinda eyeball and line up the the middle of the slot with the bolt hole. then I rotate the rotor to around vertical and put it in. when it rotates to the left, it's right about at the #1 position. this should put you right where you need to be.

on a side note & pardon the hijack...
Ganoid, did you have a problem with Tim at DOA?
the $1200 dollar note in your signature... let me guess, you bought a head you weren't happy with? 'cause that's what happened to me.

there's another board I follow, and everyone praised Tim as this Toyota God, so when I needed a head, I decided to go high perf. and bought one from him that was supposed to have stainless valves, high end springs, and and be this top end porting job. I can't speak for the porting job, but if the valves weren't stock, they CERTAINLY weren't stainless, and who knows about the springs. through the whole process, he was hard to pin down, and wouldn't return my calls or emails on questions and status updates. he cashed my money order as soon as he got it, though. everything felt rushed along, except for the actual build and delivery -- it took about three weeks -- and I felt like I was bothering him with the questions I had. he never even told me when the thing shipped! and when it did show up on the doorstep one afternoon (I asked to have it shipped to my office), it was packed loosely in a box of styrofoam peanuts! at least it was bagged, though it got banged around a little bit. it was clear that a couple of the edges had sustained impact, as they were somewhat flattened, and I never even got a receipt. very very disappointed, and I'll never do business with him again.

later, when I needed an engine, I stumbled onto Ted Stanwood (engnbldr) -- now there's a guy who understands customer service. after speaking with Ted and him patiently answering ALL of my questions -- at this point, I hadn't spent dollar one with him -- I asked if they could build an engine for me. at the time they weren't doing longblocks and I needed one fast, so I ended up going with a Jasper reman. needless to say, I was bummed when I started reading that they started doing longblocks for customers. eh well, anyway, that's where I'm getting my next engine...

I completely rebuilt the engine.
So the #1 was at TDC. I lined the cam gear up with that. Mark at 12 oclock. I installed the dist with the rotor facing the #1 point in the cap......

The harmonic balancer wouldn't be that far off. It would came apart first.
It's running like crap, knocking under load, and running a little bit hot. All signs of advanced timing.
I've had the cam cover off 3 times. The cam gear is still lined up. I am going to recheck the dist tho. Make sure it's still on. That's the one thing I didn't think of.

Thanks for the suggestions.

yeah, it's not rocket science, so don't skirt the obvious. just doublecheck the distributor. pull the cap leaving the distributor in, and rotate the crank to TDC, just to see exactly where the rotor is. it should be right around where the #1 point is. if you had it out 180, it wouldn't even start, so you're probably in the right spot.

and you've got your valves set correctly too, right?
you can do a quick check if you pull the valve cover again with engine at TDC -- just give the appropriate rocker arms a quick wiggle to make sure the right ones are loose and the others tight, then rotate one full turn on the crank and check the rest the same way.

if you've got it running at 45* BTDC I should say it would run hot! along with the other symptoms you mentioned.

let me ask you this -- when you put the distributor into the head, do you already have the rotor pointing at #1, or does it end up at #1? it's supposed to end up at #1 after you put the distributor in. to get it there, because it rotates, you have to insert the distributor with the rotor about vertical, then it rotates CCW to about the #1 position. this is what you're doing, correct?

Not exactly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Pulled the cap off, the rotor was in the wrong position. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
It was running more like 90*. The mark was on the side of the pulley <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
I've been trying to figure all day what happened.
That explains it. Slid it in at #1.
She's timed right now tho. Now I just have to rebuild this Weber and stick some NGK wires on her.
Thanks alot for the help guys <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Yodta,
You naild it exactly when it comes to Tim @DOA. I bought 2 heads for my 3.0 and the cams to go with it. What happend to you is exactly what happend to me infact your description is so close its almost scary. My heads however took almost 2 mos to get back. That dumb a$$ packed them just like yours only I had 2 heads in the same box so you can imagin what thay looked like huh. I had to make a trip to portland to get all the damage welded up on the gasket surfaces. other than that same as you.... junk valves,stock springs,belt sander resurface, no port work to speak of (just some trivial port maching I could have done my self in 30 mins) and finally Tims signature..... no reciept for my purchase???

Looking at the heads when I got them back it was clear they where not the same heads I sent him. I just assumed it was an exchange thing boy was I dumb. If you ever look up "DOA Racing Engines" on the BBB web site be sure you look at his record in california. I made a mistake and only checked NC and saw no complaints so I assumed he was ok.

I recently had my cyl heads done locally by Louthan comp and I could not be happier with the performance. I am also one of the lucky few who can simply hop in the truck and drive for 45 mins to Engnbldr's shop in portland where I bought all my 3.0 rebuild parts this time. Those guys are top notch when it comes to service,price and quality.