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Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: BoostedInline6] #727247 06/01/06 02:17 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 26
TRDatVT Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Ok, wow a lot has gone on since i last checked the thread... I have been experiencing tuning with many cars/trucks including my 4runner for a long time. One thing to remember is that you should keep a pretty rich tune to keep the power flowing. 12:1 is the absolute threshold for me. I tune for approx 11.8:1 and because of OBD II and my stupid SAFC and its tendency to be inaccurate it goes between 11.6 and 12.0:1. Also you have to remember that ideally you would want to own an FTC1 from www.URDUSA.com from Gadget and Brian's company Underdog Racing Developement. The ability to adjust timing is crucial for our application!!! Out timing is about 15 degrees advance around idle and somewhere around 24-30 or so when at full throttle and knock. THe knock sensors don't activate until 3000 RPM (peak torque) and will retard timing in moderation to avoid ping but when the situation gets extreme (ie. 14.7:1 in boost) it will not be able to adjust enough. Also after all this is checked, look at fuel trims and tune for closed loop for best performance and i WOULD HIGHLY SUGGEST the Oxygen Sensor calibration box also from URD to set your in boost AFR correctly! My personal email is JWeinber@vt.edu if you need to talk a little more!


1999 4-runner
TRD Supercharger, 5 speed, 2 inch pulley, Dual 2.5" exhaust, AEM Brute Force Intake, Supra Injectors
Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: TRDatVT] #727248 06/01/06 05:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,690
Jeff the marmot Offline OP
Roll Me Over
*****
Quote
Also you have to remember that ideally you would want to own an FTC1 from www.URDUSA.com from Gadget and Brian's company Underdog Racing Developement.

Check. Got it in place. It's great that buying one from URD came with the FTC1 pre-programmed for a typical sea level 3rd gen 4Runner.

Quote
The ability to adjust timing is crucial for our application!!! Our timing is about 15 degrees advance around idle and somewhere around 24-30 or so when at full throttle and knock. THe knock sensors don't activate until 3000 RPM (peak torque) and will retard timing in moderation to avoid ping but when the situation gets extreme (ie. 14.7:1 in boost) it will not be able to adjust enough.

Great info. I need to review where my timing numbers are compared to your info. It's very possible I didn't adjust my timing enough. I got nervous if I had to make significant changes in the numbers.

Thanks for your help!

One other question -- when coasting downhill with zero throttle and a couple thousand rpms (such as with overdrive off), there's very little air and fuel going through the engine. Is it a concern that the wideband A/F meter displays "lean" then? Should I be trying to tune that out? I stuck with Gadget's original numbers in that area of the FTC's map.

Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: Jeff the marmot] #727249 06/01/06 04:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,205
BoostedInline6 Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Perfectly normal for super lean A/Fs upon deceleration. My wideband reads from 10.0:1 to 20.0:1. After 20.0:1 it simply reads "lean", which is displayed everytime I lift completely off the throttle.

Ken


2000 4Runner | 5-speed | E-locker | Tundra/OME 2" lift | Stubbs Sliders | Deckplate/TrueFlow |
Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: BoostedInline6] #727250 06/01/06 08:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
Dandeman Offline
Toyota Moderator
Quote
Perfectly normal for super lean A/Fs upon deceleration. My wideband reads from 10.0:1 to 20.0:1. After 20.0:1 it simply reads "lean", which is displayed everytime I lift completely off the throttle.

Ken


From what I've learned in my various readings (and problems with TPS adjustments), when lifting off the throttle totally (as sensed by the TPS) and vehicle speed is "overrunning" the engine (as sensed by the ECU that Engine RPM is significantly above idle RPM with no throttle applied), the ECU does a "fuel cut" where the injectors are not opening at all, until the engine gets down to just above idle speed...

This transition from no fuel being injected to fuel being injected requires the TPS to be precisely adjusted to the factory settings (critically so on manual transmission vehicles), otherwise there is a "jerk" as you move the throttle slightly above and below the TPS idle switch closure as the engine goes from no fuel to fuel being injected...

If the TPS idle switch is set too high (switch closing prematurely while the TB butterfly is still open enough to allow significant air flow), the jerking can be very pronouced and annoying.

The closed throttle, engine overrun is a very dirty situation with regard to emissions, if fuel is flowing in the engine.. and with catalytic converters, this can't be allowed to happen.. otherwise you overheat the converter and have other problems.

In the old days with carburetors, this was the PIA scenario that required air injection pumps (in the exhaust stream) or, excessive amount of EGR injection, dashpot dampers, or vaccuum actuators on the butterfly to hold it off the fully closed position, and other Rube Goldberg fixes... When it wasn't perfect, you had popping from unburned gas dumped in the exhaust flashing off and, of course the possibility of overheating the catalytic converter.

With ECU controlled fuel injection, the "fuel cut" makes it a piece of cake...

Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: Dandeman] #727251 06/04/06 07:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 36
chuckles Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
I suggest a dyno pull with an Air/Fuel guage hooked to it and datalog it. You should never be over 12.0:1 with boosted engine unless you want to turn it into a boat anchor..... Timing: I'd start with 10 degrees under full load and add until you get detonation then back off about 2 degrees. If you're having spark blow out, it will show up on the dyno pull. You can either reduce the gap on the plug, or install higher output COP setup... Good luck..


85 Runner. (Camo Beast)
Re: Slightly smaller S/C pulley didn't work for me [Re: Dandeman] #727252 06/04/06 01:57 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 26
TRDatVT Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Quote
Quote
Perfectly normal for super lean A/Fs upon deceleration. My wideband reads from 10.0:1 to 20.0:1. After 20.0:1 it simply reads "lean", which is displayed everytime I lift completely off the throttle.

Ken


From what I've learned in my various readings (and problems with TPS adjustments), when lifting off the throttle totally (as sensed by the TPS) and vehicle speed is "overrunning" the engine (as sensed by the ECU that Engine RPM is significantly above idle RPM with no throttle applied), the ECU does a "fuel cut" where the injectors are not opening at all, until the engine gets down to just above idle speed...

This transition from no fuel being injected to fuel being injected requires the TPS to be precisely adjusted to the factory settings (critically so on manual transmission vehicles), otherwise there is a "jerk" as you move the throttle slightly above and below the TPS idle switch closure as the engine goes from no fuel to fuel being injected...

If the TPS idle switch is set too high (switch closing prematurely while the TB butterfly is still open enough to allow significant air flow), the jerking can be very pronouced and annoying.

The closed throttle, engine overrun is a very dirty situation with regard to emissions, if fuel is flowing in the engine.. and with catalytic converters, this can't be allowed to happen.. otherwise you overheat the converter and have other problems.

In the old days with carburetors, this was the PIA scenario that required air injection pumps (in the exhaust stream) or, excessive amount of EGR injection, dashpot dampers, or vaccuum actuators on the butterfly to hold it off the fully closed position, and other Rube Goldberg fixes... When it wasn't perfect, you had popping from unburned gas dumped in the exhaust flashing off and, of course the possibility of overheating the catalytic converter.

With ECU controlled fuel injection, the "fuel cut" makes it a piece of cake...


Exactly right... The engine cuts fuel completely during deceleration and actually goes into open loop believe it or not. It turns essentially into a big air pump and simply intakes air, and pumps it straight back out. Little trick i learned is that every so often it is a good idea to recallibrate your wideband and all you have to do is simply get on the highway and drop into 3rd around 4000 rpm and let off the gas! The air running through the exhuast after about 3 seconds is ambient and is perfect for calibration to air! I do this once a week to keep it honest <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> Also, you should regain fuel injection around 1500 RPM or so from the factory settings and only every so often do i feel the "jerking" (mine is a manual)


1999 4-runner
TRD Supercharger, 5 speed, 2 inch pulley, Dual 2.5" exhaust, AEM Brute Force Intake, Supra Injectors
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