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Re: Install and torque Head bolts dry or cleaned and lubricated with....engine oil/other [Re: justice] #1033334 08/20/11 04:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
Quote
None of Frank's engines ever blew? Just sayin'


Yes, but not due to oil on the head bolts. I can do much better than that.

Blowing up engines is something I've been good at for about 50 years - and while none of them were intentional, I've found it a good way to see what works and what doesn't. It's probably a good thing for me that I didn't take up explaosives as a hobby.

Anyway, I think Kevin means that a lot of folks use oil on head bolts with success - not that I invented the idea.

Frank

Re: Install and torque Head bolts dry or cleaned and lubricated with....engine oil/other [Re: justice] #1033335 08/20/11 04:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
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Yes, one "blew", but I was driving it, so it had an excuse. IIRC, the s/c blew bits into the motor?

Funny, there is a somewhat parallel debate over on the Miata turbo forum on stud installs, loose or torqued down, and what lube if any on torquing any fastener. Corky Bell is a regular there. He wrote the bible on turbo motors, a knowledgable aero engineer to boot, Nate and John.

Corky uses Moly lube on the threads and washer and bolt head. I would too, if I could find it again. The torque value the wrench tells you is a crap shoot. They talk about preload "scatter" at the same torque value due to variability in the variables I noted above. Not quite random, but not very predictable either. Since the entire procedure is done to get a stated clamping load on the head and gasket, I try to reduce the effect of the variables, primarily thread and bolt head/washer friction. Oil the threads unless the book calls out dry.

What you are doing is preloading a relatively inelastic spring, the head bolt/stud plus gasket, to the required clamping force to withstand pressure and suction forces over kazillions of heat cycles in ambient temps ranging from 100+ down to damncold, for well over 3000 hours of use.


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: Install and torque Head bolts dry or cleaned and lubricated with....engine oil/other [Re: fasteddy] #1033336 08/20/11 04:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
Quote
Yes, one "blew", but I was driving it, so it had an excuse. IIRC, the s/c blew bits into the motor?


Oh, that one was nothing. What I learned from that one was how to identify a failing rotor bearing noise on engine start BEFORE it destroys an engine.

The one with the seized oil pump was a better thermal event when the pistons seized to the block and I experienced the fastest compression braking I've ever seen -

and the one I thought I could run on one of Corky Bell's rising rate fuel regulators that detonated under full boost, squeezing the rings until they broke and blew the lands right off of one piston.... now that one was an event! It sure was screaming nice and lean right up to the point of silence. Somewhere around here I have a signed copy of Corky Bell's "Supercharged" book. I haven't opened it since that engine blew up and if anyone wants it, make me a cheap offer and I'll stick you with it.

I could tell you about some others in my pre-boost days, but they weren't as exciting..... you know - those sick ones where rods go klank-bang through the block and oil pan and such.... none of those were a result of oiled head bolts, either.

Ahhhhh well - a bit was learned from each one.

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: Install and torque Head bolts dry or cleaned and lubricated with....engine oil/other [Re: fasteddy] #1033337 08/20/11 05:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 231
9
95LS Offline OP
Wheeler
Quote
Yes, one "blew", but I was driving it, so it had an excuse. IIRC, the s/c blew bits into the motor?

Funny, there is a somewhat parallel debate over on the Miata turbo forum on stud installs, loose or torqued down, and what lube if any on torquing any fastener. Corky Bell is a regular there. He wrote the bible on turbo motors, a knowledgable aero engineer to boot, Nate and John.

Corky uses Moly lube on the threads and washer and bolt head. I would too, if I could find it again. The torque value the wrench tells you is a crap shoot. They talk about preload "scatter" at the same torque value due to variability in the variables I noted above. Not quite random, but not very predictable either. Since the entire procedure is done to get a stated clamping load on the head and gasket, I try to reduce the effect of the variables, primarily thread and bolt head/washer friction. Oil the threads unless the book calls out dry.

What you are doing is preloading a relatively inelastic spring, the head bolt/stud plus gasket, to the required clamping force to withstand pressure and suction forces over kazillions of heat cycles in ambient temps ranging from 100+ down to damncold, for well over 3000 hours of use.


Intersting how small the world of cars is. Corky Bell is an old friend of mine from Dallas, TX days. Corky had a shop over on Ables lane and I was the Regional Vehicle distributor for Nissan Motor corp around thc corner. He wanted to Turbo My Nissan SX and we swapped cars for a week. I was driving his SX with a huge turbo on it,...up Stemmons Freeway the next day....it had NO WASTEGATE,...and a temporary boost gauge taped to the windshield......the theory was that I had to use my right foot to ensure that I didnt overboost the engine..........well, I did when I was passing several lanes of cars by reunion tower,....The big whooshof power was followed by that freakish silence while still doing 80 mph. I was sure I had grenaded the egine. fortunately, I had just blown the hose off between the turbo and intake manifold. I had to cross 4 or 5 lanes of traffic at speed with no engine power, power steering, or power brakes to get to the grass shoulder before I coasted to a halt. I was a suit and tie guy in those days,....there I was on Stemmons Freeway trying to get the boost hose back on with essentially no tools,...got it done somehow, and drove it back to the office very carefully (read: minimal boost), until I could get some tools and get the hose back on tight,.....then it was off and running again...it was a surprising car when you tipped your foot in it.

I never did have Corky Turbo the SX,...I decided to sell it and sell my 280 Z and buy a new 1979 280ZX black and gold limited edition as my next company car. It was the last car we had at the port that ran on regular leaded gas, so, I grabbed it. Every morning on the way in to the office, I had this LONG down hill of a new not yet open highway that I got to run on,.....there was no place for a cop to hide, so that was my daily max speed run every morning.....better than a cup of coffee.

Last edited by 95LS; 08/20/11 05:41 AM.

95 3.0 LS (24v)
241,000 miles and still going
Re: Install and torque Head bolts dry or cleaned and lubricated with....engine oil/other [Re: 95LS] #1033338 08/20/11 05:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
I think rising rate fpr's are doo doo. It's like the bonehead trick I pulled on a turbo Opel where I triggered the cold start injector for boost enrichment with a hobbs pressure switch. It's just a bandaid for lack of proper mixture control, and, as you found, a ticket to the big clanky in the motor. We even did stuff like putting a resistor in the ecu cts wire to make the ecu think the motor was cold and use cold start enrichment. I had one version with multiple resistors and pressure switches to give a range of enrichment. Didn't work worth a hoot.

Just oil the head bolts and washers and torque it down to 80ftlbs in three stages, 35, 60, and then to 80, following the book pattern. Out of an excess of obsessiveness, I tap the head with a dead blow hammer after the first pass to make sure it's settled all the way snug and not hung up.


Not responsible for advice not taken...
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