Good news. Not so good news. And, totally unrelated good news.


I switched the SPAL fan controller to turn on the primary at 188/189 degrees and full on primary and secondary full on @ 208. 90 degrees into the sun and against the wind for about 160 miles doing 70 Mph heading from Denver to Green River, UT, and the same today up through the Swell. That is a nasty 10-12% incline that goes for miles and I still had the 90 degrees and nasty head wind. Not so much as a hic-cup. Engine temps behaved almost identically to my '03 3.5L. Never went any higher than to turn on the secondary fan going up the Swell. Don't know about wheeling but on the highway this is almost perfect.

Not so good news ... it gets to 208 which is about 4 degrees less than full open on the thermostat and drops the temps into the 190s but if its like I described above, the secondary fan doesn't turn off as quickly as I'd like. Only solution is to drop the turn on point for the primary - which is plenty low as it is - or raise the top limit to 210. I may try 210. That should cause it to turn off once temps get back down to 195ish.

Really good news ... Dang! I really like the new drag link with the "1 ton" GM 1" ends and the Rancho RS7000 stabilizer. It steers as well as or better than my stock Sports. Thing's amazing on the highway even in the wind. Tracks great and virtually no bump steer. It hasn't driven even close to how it drives now for years and years. Nice to see 3-4 years of rebuilding coming together.

Edward

Uh, addendum to my last post ...

Fun times in UT. I got lost between Meeker, Steamboat and Rifle. Ended up coming down some canyon north of Rifle. Well, I hadn't bothered to drop into Lo anything, so I was still in 1st gear 2WD at the head of the trail doing about 5 MPH when I ran head first into a boggy, dugout collection of flooded holes big enough to swallow a 3500 king cab. After clawing my way out while experimenting with randomly rearranging all my gear by bouncing it all over the interior of my vehicle and checking everything for damage, I continued on my way. Slower.

Didn't think too much of it 'till I got about half way between Grand Junction, CO and Green River, UT. Truck exhaust started sounding a little loud. Not much so I figured my existing little leak had gotten slightly worse with the bouncing and crashing so I continued on my way.

About 10-12 miles from Green River I suddenly lost power and everything got REAL loud. I was on the down-hill stretch practically coasting in by then so limped it to the hotel and parked figuring I'd deal with it in the morning. By this time it was running like hell, spitting and sputtering and idling horribly.

Got up the next morning, had breakfast and headed to the truck stop across the road figuring I just needed to have a pipe re-welded. Advice? Never break down in UT. Ever. After four shops - none of which either had a welder or someone who could run it if they did, I decided to do what I SHOULD have done first which was crawl underneath and see what the problem was instead of making assumptions.

Lo and behold, I'd managed to blow a hole through the flex joint where the down pipes transition to the exhaust pipe, CAT, etc. Not just a hole, but a hole the size of a 50 cent piece - right in front of the forward O2 sensor. Well, that explained the way it was running. Also, made further running around pointless 'cause I don't carry a spare for that and I wasn't about to wait around to have Napa air drop one in via carrier pigeon in three or four days. And, I couldn't drive it like that to Price, so ....

It occurred to me that one of my handy 3" wide stainless exhaust band clamps would be very handy right about now. All of which were at home, of course. Well, off to Napa. Figured all they could do was tell me they didn't carry them. Surprise, they did. They even had a 3" diameter one which is the exact diameter of that flex joint. It took about five minutes to install and the minute I started the vehicle everything was back to normal. Cheap $8 patch which I will take any day. The bad part was that patch pretty much killed any chance of wheeling for the rest of the trip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So, with everything back to 'normal' I decided to bail and head home a day early while my luck was holding. I decided to take the long way back to Denver by driving up to Price and cutting across on US 40. About half way back to Denver I noticed that the Sport wasn't running quite like it had been on the way out before I decided to be an idiot and not watch where I was driving. It actually seemed to steadily be running better. Which is saying something because it ran really good going out. Anyway, that persisted all the way back to Denver and its actually running smoother and with more power than it has before with the 3.5L.

I checked the entire exhaust before leaving Denver for UT and I couldn't see or hear a leak in the flex joint but now I'm starting to think that there was one and there has been one for quite some time. Which, now, makes me question several previous assumptions. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It takes VERY little outside air hitting the exhaust stream right in front of the primary O2 sensor(s) to really hork up the ECM/PCM, so ....

On my list anyway here shortly to accommodate the anti-wrap bar is an entire new exhaust from the manifolds back. The existing exhaust has about 150-200K and has been chopped and hacked so many times in the last three years that it's a wreak, so its definitely due for replacement. I was hoping, given the way its running now, that I was right on the edge of being done with this project but I want to get rid of ALL the leaks and possible leaks before any finish fine-tuning tweaking on the F/IC maps.

Like I said, its running like a top. Even with about 800 lbs of gear, gas and water in a vehicle that weighs about 5700 lbs now I had no problems tooling up and down the mountain passes and doing 70-75 MPH in 90 degree weather in UT. No over heating, no audible knock nor any discernible through the shifter. Power is excellent. I figured the extra weight would make a huge difference, but it doesn't really seem to care. Mileage is like my dad's '76 F250. 17.5-18.5. Loaded, unloaded, it just doesn't care.

I am STILL not happy with the mileage. Its not as good as the 3.0L was under the same circumstances with the same load. But, there's no way to tell if its just the way the 3.5L works, this engine just isn't as tight as my 3.0L, I beat the crap out of this particular engine trying to get to this point, or what without installing a brand new engine once I'm done so I can compare results. And, I ain't going there.

Right now its running like a top so I'm pretty happy. The torque is great. The new 1 ton steering drag link and RS7000 stabilizer make it drive like a brand new vehicle - smooth and straight even in the wind. Switching to 17"s running 35"s should take what little tracking on the ruts is left out.

I'll get the exhaust done, retest and see how it goes from there.

Edward

AAARRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!

Fraggle frikin snagglesnach!!! So, I'm still waiting for down pipes but the clamp fix in UT is holding. Apparently there was a worse leak there than I thought last post. Just the clamp has evened things out considerably. The change to the SPAL to 188 and 208 and the removal of the IPF lights on the bull bar have stabilized temperatures.

Last weekend I was down to the IAC and MAF as the only two things under the hood that haven't been replaced this year by factory Mitsu new parts.

I figured out the stumble/miss/off-idle/refuse to idle nightmare that would crop up occasionally after running the F/IC for several weeks to a month or two. Somehow the F/IC is horking with the ECM which is then screwing up the IAC. Don't ask me how, but I replicated the problem consistently. I originally though (and wrote) that it was garbageing up the ECM, but that's not the case. Even replacing the ECM doesn't fix the issue once if crops up. The behaviour is exaclty the same as if the IAC was bad. BTW, this triggers no codes.

The only way to resolve the issue is to reset the ECM (by unplugging from power for 30 minutes or so), and follow the FSM directions to set the IAC EXACTLY. Just resetting the ECM still leaves the IAC in some whacked out 'miss-adjustment'.

So, while continuing to test this problem, I pulled the F/IC. I left the wiring and put in the jumpers that AEM supplies to allow you to remove the F/IC box and still drive the vehicle. I've had it this way for a week and no issues have cropped up. I wanted to do this to confirm that I WASN'T actually seeing bad behavior from a IAC heading south. It shouldn't be since it's only two years old and a factory Mitsu part, but ....

I've had some strange behavior for several years which I was almost sure was the MAF. I also was seeing the exact same behavior on my little stock '97, so I swapped MAF units last year. The problem followed both vehicles. So, yea, I figured that both were having issues. I picked up a brand new Mitsu OEM MAF three months ago but I've put off installing it until last Saturday. Only change one part at a time. Test. Repeat. So, last Saturday I was down to the IAC and MAF. The new IAC isn't in yet so I swapped in the new MAF.

Yep. Bad MAF. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> No CEL or pending codes, but it was definitely having issues. I can't tell if it was air flow, of BARO. I doubt very much its IAT. But, one of them or both are not working correctly. I suspect both because ...

... wait for it ...

EVERYTHING changed. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Air flow not being quite accurate won't change timing this much, but BARO will. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So, I'm back to square one. Literately. I'm going to have to start all over, remap and then build a new timing and fuel map. Sigh.

And all that sucks because it's late fall here in CO so the temps are way down. I've had the F/IC disconnected for a week and haven't had any problems with overheating even on the little drive I took Saturday to confirm MAF operation, but that doesn't mean anything. Until next summer when the temps go up I won't know if this means I've been chasing my tail for 8 months and I don't even need the F/IC or if it'll run all right without it as long as its only 50-60 degrees or lower out or what.

I currently can't detect any detonation even if I really lug it in 3rd at low RPM on steep inclines but like I said, it's been 40 degrees, so ....

Anyway, I'll keep plunking away. If the temps get up to 70 this weekend like they say, I'll take it up and see what happens on my test canyon trail and see if it overheats in 4WD or I can detect any detonation.

On the plus side, it runs like a top with the new MAF. Glass smooth and I seem to have gotten rid of the exhaust stink that wasn't normal that I've had for 3-4 years.

Edward

Lo, these years latter, its done. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I finally had to start over from where we swapped the engine into the bay. While I got the FIC to work - and work pretty well - I never got the injector code and CEL to go away. Now that CO fails emissions if ANY code is present, that was kinda out for me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So, everything back to bone stock.

I replaced every sensor, solenoid and electronic 'whatsis' under the hood and all the emissions stuff in the engine bay as well. I had an entirely new exhaust installed from the manifolds back. 3.5L FED passenger side down pipe and 3.0L FED driver side down pipe (they don't make the 3.5L anymore) - the 3.0L pipe slightly lengthened to mate to the 3.5L down pipe. New OEM CAT and the little elbow pipe after that that normally bolts to the muffler, then 2.25" pipe to the back with the new Flowmaster "SUV" muffler. New OEM O2 sensors as well.

Along the way doing all this fixed several persistent problems I've had for years and uncovered a few problems I didn't even know I had. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At this point its now running like a brand new vehicle. So, that's all goodness! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I also finally had to replace my rear D44 and rebuilt my front D44. ProRock 44 in the rear now and beefed up the front with new cromo shafts and outers. Been an expensive year. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So that's the good part.

I readjusted the electric fans to come on (50%) @ right about 186 with full on at 208. So, fan one is running at about 85% at 200. That's good about 90% of the time. It sucks because the running the fans constantly and at that speed drags on the 175A alternator and uses more gas, but that's the only way I could finally keep it the temps from bouncing all over the place and horking up the ECM.

Ironically, this setting works better OFF ROAD than on pavement. At low speeds - below about 35-40 - it still warms up. I can't hear it but its pretty obvious its detonation caused. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The lower the gear (timing increases) - the worse the problem. So, no different than before. I need to try dropping the fans about 5 degrees while keeping full on at 208. That should keep the temps down closer to 200-205 rather than 208-210 as it sometimes gets now. This is not ambient related - it'll do this when its 50 degrees just as bad as when its 98.

On the highway it'll still get to 208-210 but won't get any worse so that's ok. I should say, as far as i know. I haven't tried taking it over the passes in 90 degree temps.

Off road will run up to about 212 before the fans start pulling it down into the low 200s where it pretty much stays. That is a huge improvement. I think the majority of the issues here were caused by issues with the vehicle - sensors, egr, whatnot. Fixing the EVAP and EGR got rid of a LOT of issues, so .... Still, I think pulling the start temp down 5 degrees here will even things out a little more.

The biggest improvement to operation was just getting the engine temp stabilized. Climbing from 195 to 208/210 and back is fine AS LONG AS it doesn't do it 15 times a minute. Right now I have the cooling behaving very similarly to my '03 3.5L Sport and the '97 ECM has no problems.

I don't know how or if this conversion would actually run at sea level. There's still too much timing and that shows up now and then. All that I've done with the fans and radiator is nothing but a huge band-aid. I haven't actually fixed the problem of too much timing from the 3.0L ECM for the 3.5L engine. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It runs good - I have no complaints with the power. Gas mileage is crappy compared to what I'm used to with the 3.0L. Interestingly, its only a couple MPG worse than my stock AWD '03 3.5L. Just depends on where and what. Better in the mountains doing 45-50 MPH than my '03 but worse on the flat highway. Timing goes up - gas mileage goes down and vica versa. Sigh. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The FIC helped this considerably but ....

I guess the larger question is how long the engine will actually last with the 3.0L ECM. Detonation will beat the crap out of an engine eventually.

Anyway, conclusions ... I ALMOST wish I'd never done this swap. The extra torque is really nice and the overall performance is a good bit better than the 3.0L in a 6000lb vehicle. Driving at low speeds in the mountains is a dream compared to the 3.0L. The mileage is nowhere even close to what I used to get with the 3.0L. 300-315 miles a tank w/ 3.0L vs 230-250 (closer to 230 in the winter) with the 3.5L. So, while performance is good, cost to operate has gone through the roof. 2.5/3 tanks a week. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And, again, engine life is an unknown. I really doubt this one will make it past 200K.

On the other hand, I'm glad I have the 3.5L with the ProRock. The new axle is quite a bit heavier than my original D44 so the 3.5L keeps things comfortable in the mountains.

Anyway, so that's it. Maybe now I can get started on my other Sport.

Edward

Good to hear it's behaving better, swaps man... Been there everytime. Now i only do swaps from old carby motors to MPI engines otherwise i feel the same as you.

Yep, think I'll stick to the same. Not nearly this hard on a muscle car.

Took it for a 400 mile swing though the northern CO mountains. 90s when I left 70s-80s in the mountains. Ran good. Figured about about 16.7 MPG on the last tank and that was with fighting a nasty headwind for the first 1/3 of a tank. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Last two times it was almost exactly 17 MPG. Oh, and that was with all my gear + 5 gal of gas but without the usual 20 gallons of water. And it ONLY does this good in the mountains - somewhere about 15-15.5 on the plains. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Its a far cry from the 18-18.5 I'm used to with the 3.0L. This is ALMOST as bad as driving a Jeep. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I didn't have it outright overheat - which basically means I didn't have to stop and let it cool down. Probably because I didn't get stuck in traffic going up the pass. Still hit 216-218 a few times but it didn't go any higher - either because the fans can at least keep it there or because I just didn't give it enough time to go higher. For the most part, though, it behaved no different than my '03 3.5L. I'll drop the fan controller to 180 this week. Didn't feel like messing with it yesterday. Long, slow (below 35 MPH) climbs still eventually become a problem.

Taking it up to RMNP next weekend to run Fall River. See how it does there. Not really 4WD but that is a LONG steep climb. Haven't had any issues off road this year, but its been cool and I've only been up a couple times. We're heading out to Moab the 20th of next month - I'll have time to take it off road before then.

I managed to stumble across an actual Ford OEM Contour dual fan assembly last winter. Ford doesn't sell this anymore I found out but a dealership had one left on the shelf. I want to swap assemblies sometime this month. I had some weird noises coming from the fans this winter so I MAY have a motor going south - not working at full power.

On a more positive note - I took it in for emissions Saturday. Passed CO emissions on the first try and better than my stock '03 3.5L - by a good bit. I've had FOUR aftermarket CATs and I swear none of them work as well as the OEM one. Anyway, it was in and out in less than 10 minutes. I thought for sure it'd failed miserably since they'd finished that quickly.

Ah, well. At least it runs good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I'll try the MS if I get really really bored some day. I was really looking forward to putting a 3.5L in my little '97 - especially after seeing how heavy just the Pro Rock 44s are. I'm not sure even the 3.5L would be much help with a Pro Rock 60 in the back. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Edward

I sort of kind of wish i went with a pro rock 44 for my Montero, I got the Rock Assault instead. I probably saved 2k but i think those Dynatrac axles are far better and hopefully i won't regret my purchase. Oh well, i mostly wanted matching everything between my 2 trucks so that i can share spares and things between them.

Yea, that's a good idea. I'd planned to do the same on my two, but I didn't have a lot of options this spring if I didn't want to wait until June. Spun the passenger side tube. Never occurred to me that Currie wouldn't weld their tubes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Guess I can't complain too much. That was the original D44 from the SAS in '02. I just wish it would have done it BEFORE I spent $1000 rebuilding the entire axle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, I didn't want a 60 in the big Sport since I use that as my DD. Glad I didn't, too. The 44 sucks enough gas as it is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> So, if I build the little Sport I'll probably go with the same thing I have now. Yea, being able to swap parts would be really nice.

I looked at the Rock Assault ones along with a few others. Thought briefly about switching to a 9". Couldn't get the 5.38s on the 9" and everyone else was backed up for three months. Looked like a good axle though.

The Dynatrac are nice though. Expensive, but nice.

Edward

I originally went with a local shop to build a front axle from the Mitsu 9.5" diff and housing with Chevy D44 outers and Ford hybrid shafts. This was the cheapest easiest thing but unfortunately i got impatient with the shop and said F' it and started buying the Rock Assault parts.

The thing about building a Rock Assault axle one piece at a time is that Trail-Gear doesn't sell every part individually and some things they don't sell at all anymore outside of the fully built axle assembly. Luckily the guys at Diamond axle hooked me up with the missing bits. Looking back, way back when i originally contacted Diamond some years ago about a hybrid front Montero axle they wanted to build it using Toyota outers and hybrid Toy/Ford RCV shafts with my Mitsu diff. I should have done it and the only reason i didn't was because i didn't have the money to build a complete axle and i really couldn't afford the RCV's on top.
So here i am having spent more than the Diamond axle and the same amount for TG Longfields as i would have for RCV's. The only reason i went with the new Longfield shafts over the RCV's is that when i talked to RCV they gave it to me straight and said "stick all TG parts in there otherwise they will fight any of your warranty claims" and "If they quit warrantying their shafts and joints or you get tired of them we'll cut you a deal"

Oh well i've got a killer front axle, i built it and i was able to piece it together as funds permitted like i wanted. So i'm happy with that.

Yep. That's the problem I was looking at last fall and early spring. I ended up just rebuilding the front D44 which I think ended up being just short of as expensive as just putting in a new axle. I managed to keep the ARB. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course, one of those projects that starts out small and by the time you figure out you're going to end up dang near replacing the entire thing, you're too deep in to stop. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ford with Chevy outers is what I have. Nice but not a Dynatrac JK or ProRock. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> After I replaced the rear, I really wished I'd replaced the front with a Dynatrac, too. Not willing to dump what is essentially a brand new axle now, though. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If I do have to replace another one or do the little Sport, I'll definitely do complete axles. It took weeks (literally) to source, accumulate parts and rebuild the front D44. It took a day and a half to dump a complete new axle in the back including getting a new drive shaft built. Dang near as much labor in the front as the just the cost of the rear axle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Yep, sometimes that counts for a lot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> The older I get, though, the less my enthusiasm is for piecing things together. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Living in CO and having no time to do stuff myself hasn't helped. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really want to build the little black Sport - three link front and leaf rear with the same dual t-case setup - but that may not be practical or possible now. Waiting to see if the Mitsu dealership closes and where the tech that does my maintenance goes and still trying to find a reputable shop that'll take my designs and do the work.

Been looking at '97 Land Cruisers, but now I'm spoiled and refuse to drive anything that doesn't have either a dual t-case or equivalent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Edward