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New 4x4 concept #1064076 09/20/13 09:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,134
TOASTY Offline OP
Trail Leader
*****
I haven't said much about my recent projects with MMNA, trying not to botch things i'm working on (or reveal things i shouldn't and loose my friends trust). Anyway the short story is that I made some suggestions and had some ideas, these things got mentioned to some people. At that point it was requested that i put my ideas into writing to be presented in Japan, it seems an interest has been sparked.


The Pajero is what it is and having said that there is no going back, the Pajero has it's own path of evolution that cannot be changed. The push now is for a rebirth or successor to the 4wd market. The plan is to "build" an open source concept 4x4 to be presented to MMC directly, the sky is the limit on this but the chances of getting something going is greater if certain guidelines are followed. For example "Well it has to have pro rock 60's, V8 and monster diesel options, 11" LCD with android capability, 4 wheel steer, be able to max out the RTI ramp stock while still driving like a car on road" is not the goal. Motor's and gizmos are better left out, it's better to just to take on what's currently available and being produced (there's plenty).


The other thing is choosing a platform to work from; Second Gen Pajero/Type 73, Fourth Gen L200/Second Gen Challenger. These utilize something already in production and are obviously IFS/Live axle setups. Otherwise there's designing a whole new frame in order to have real axles front and rear, this would require all new tooling and more R&D on MMC's end which they might not want to do but on the other hand they need the change.
The ultimate goal is a new bodystyle, detailed specs about the suspension and drivetrain minus motor all in a base configuration as in just the core truck.

I'm going to start an actual "thing" a little later but it will be a sandbox for building the concept. I'll put together some guidelines, a parts/equipment compilation and get the ball rolling. The proposed bodystyle is retro modern with hints of Gen 1&2 Pajero and the Second Gen Type 73, so kind of boxy with round headlamps and aggressive body lines.
We'll make sketches and full drawings of body designs, these things will be used as keys for a real concept drawing.

I already have plenty of ideas to go by but I am a firm believer in open source everything so I want every piece of input you guys can come up within reason without adding negative comments or whacky space ship stuff. I don't think any corporate automakers have ventured into this territory before so it will be interesting to see what unfolds. The probability of having this concept made is very remote BUT it does serve a purpose and that is planting a seed.


1999 Montero SAS'd on Kings and stuff

1998 Montero trying to get a V8 Swapped
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: TOASTY] #1064077 09/20/13 10:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 16,227
off-roader Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
Powerplant:
Current Mitsu TD engines
Current Mitsu v6 engines
Any Mitsu v8 engines?

Transmission:
Current Transmission should be fine but make both Manual and Automatic transmissions available, not just Automatic.
Large mitsu rear & front end differentials including 4.2:1 to 5.2:1 gear ratios available.

Xcase: Not familiar with current xcase offerings but gen II xcase would be good. Lockable xcase a must.

Solid Axle Rear End w/ coil spring & shock options to increase wheel clearance for larger tires (up to 37" minimum)
4.2:1 to 5.2x:1 r&p's with rear lockers/LSD diff available.

IFS front end w/ available locking differential, long travel suspension options & lift capability to accommodate larger tires (up to 37" minimum)

Convertible w/ soft top + hard top option or some other method of a more open air feel to the passenger cabin

Optional low profile bumpers front and rear with ability to carry both a larger spare and jerry can's externally.

Optional Integrated rear storage drawer system.

4 seater configuration standard with optional 2 seater configuration available

Trudgie body option w/ secure external rear storage system.

Integrated front 9k & 12k winch installed within the front frame rails.

Optional larger capacity Transmission and Engine Coolant radiators with optional higher flow rate electric switchable fan.

Snorkel

Sealable HVAC air intakes.

Sliding rear windows as in Gen I & II Montero's (unsure about gen III).

Integrated heavy duty aluminum roof rack.

Keep spartan trim in back but add integrated storage compartments in the normally wasted space between the exterior and interior body panels.

Optional exterior Crawler Camera's and lighting under the body.

Is that a good start? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: TOASTY] #1064078 09/20/13 10:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 628
geocrasher Offline
Rock Warrior
One only has to look at the number of highly modified Jeep JK's that are on the road to realize that there's still an enthusiast market. These people think they want live axles and they also think they're going to go off-road, and the ones that do end up putting on lift kits and messing up the engineering. If you want my suggestion, give those same people soccer-mom-able truck that can wheel for real. 2nd gen pajero setup, not sure about the motor, 5spd or auto avaiable, rear locker available, *front* locker available, SWB option, and..... 33's stock. Yeah. You'll have to do that to get noticed, unfortunately. 31's are toys these days in that crowd. So, 33 (10.50's, or similarly narrow) will get you noticed. People will balk at the IFS until thy see the locker.

Style wise, I think a LWB 4 door and SWB 2dr would be pretty awesome, and yes of course a diesel option would be great but lets face it- MMNA doesn't have an EPA rated diesel/trans package and they probably aren't going to set one up.

Otherwise, the styling of the Gen 3 was pretty nice, so some hints of that would be good (I personally liked the huge flares). I also like the boxiness of the Gen1 and 2, and combining that with some nice flares and lines that follow all the way from front to back would be pretty awesome.

Other things that would make it stand out as being a Real 4x4 would be honest skidplates and rockers, and the option of a stock front winch. Or at least the space for a winch so that a consumer can choose their own to install.

And then, once they build it, they need to Actually Market it.


1987 Raider, 346K miles and going strong -31" tires, otherwise stock.
http://tidbitsfortechs.com/
http://actionpcs.com <-- $39 remote PC repair, guaranteed.
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Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: geocrasher] #1064079 09/21/13 12:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,211
JohnnyBfromPeoria Offline
Trail Leader
*****
It's gotta have a cop motor and cop brakes. And a cigarette lighter. There is no more regular gas, so that's not a problem, but it would need to run on regular unleaded.

The above references the movie 'Blues Brothers' and is in no way indicative of my actual feelings on the matter.

You guys are on the right track, but already I'm seeing too many things being asked for. You're probably not going to get a SWB.

Tell them to leave leather on the cows.

How about a back-up camera or parking sensors? Those are pretty mainstream and relatively inexpensive.

Keep it coming. This should be fun.

John B.

Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: geocrasher] #1064080 09/21/13 01:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
pto or elelctric hydraulic pump option
receivers for receiver winch, hyd or elec plug ins front and rear
waterproof seats/floors/door panels
gen1 cabrio type roof option with integral roll bar in the b pillar, rag and FRP "hardtop rear section, steel front panel
Gen2 tcase with two/three speed planetary gear set in the tcase adapter/tranny tailshaft case (doubler, stock, o/d)
3.8 6g75 sohc 24v engine with turbocharger option (who needs a v8???) with direct injection and VVT
Factory rocker rails, skid plates
Move the wheels to the corners in the 2dr
round headlights, fog lights integrated into front bumper, big reverse lights
cop spotlight with interior handle, or boat type remote spotlight
auxillary fuel tank option
Galaxy CB option
integrated large screen display with gps and obd2 readouts and integrated vehicle grade computer
paddle shifter option for 5/6spd a/t, something like the latest gm full electronic a/t
full floating axles in the rear
three position autohubs (free, auto, and lock) - I had these on a 73 LC waggy, so I know they are possible
4w disk brakes
NO CAD!


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: fasteddy] #1064081 09/21/13 03:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,134
TOASTY Offline OP
Trail Leader
*****
Quote
Gen2 tcase with two/three speed planetary gear set in the tcase adapter/tranny tailshaft case


Mandatory

I was actually thinking the normal 2:1 gear to gear low range plus a 3:1 planetary in the tailhousing.


1999 Montero SAS'd on Kings and stuff

1998 Montero trying to get a V8 Swapped
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: TOASTY] #1064082 09/21/13 04:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,134
TOASTY Offline OP
Trail Leader
*****
Quote

From: MainstreaM

For some reason I can no longer post to the forum, I keep getting an error message that says "this form is no longer valid please use the back button on your browser." I've been trying for two hours to post this:

Build a small truck/suv and keep it simple. The current offering of "small" trucks, like the rest of america, have bulging wastelines. Look at the current offerings from Nissan and Toyota, they have morphed into much larger rigs from their intended beginnings. All those creature comforts and extra soccer mom leg room have led to lower gas mileage and higher price tags. Here's what Mitsu needs to do.

1. Design a small truck that can be configured in four different ways. Standard cab SWB shared with a 2 door SUV and a 4 door 5 foot bed possibly shared with a 4 door SUV. Offer it in 2wd and 4wd. As for size, think 1st gen montero or 1st/second gen trucks. The standard cab SWB will go like stink in the woods and the four door truck will be for the guy who wants to haul a few bales of hay and his kids. SUV's, why not. A little more tooling costs on a shared platform increases marketability.

2. Offer a diesel powerplant. Lets face it, Oil is a finite resource that is on the decline so naturally supplies are lowering while demand is increasing, prices will follow. Diesel engines can be converted to alternative fuels much easier than others. MPG is going to be a huge selling factor in the not so far off future.

3. Drive train needs to be stripped down and simple. Front solid axle, manual hubs, standard transfer case (2hi, 4hi, neut, 4lo), optional lockers and/or LSD. Offer tougher drivetrain and suspension as a package or orderable upgrades. No live axles!!! They wear out parts and kill mileage so soccer mom sally doesn't have to get out in the snow. I had to remove the front diff in my Liberty CRD for repairs at 65k miles and saw an increase of 4MPG! I'm at 95k miles and it needs rebuilt again, this time gears need replaced too. 2WD would suit the guys needing a run around town truck or a commuter who wants a bed. I'd buy a 4 door 2wd 30mpg diesel mini truck in a heart beat.

4. Make it functional instead of comfortable. Weight needs to be a big consideration. Ditch the infotainment systems, big screens, and power everything. Locks and windows are nice but seats, pedals, etc., yeah we can leave that off. Did I mention make it smaller than other offerings? A classic design and size would be ideal.

5. Pricing. Make this thing around 15k and they'll buy every one on the lot. There's a segment just around the corner for a small diesel powered truck and it will be due to oil demand/supply. Get 40mpg or better out of it and watch what happens. If the R&D starts now, Mitsu will be positioned well for what's to come.

I know some of you guys will want a diehard trail rig off the showroom floor, but we need to keep in mind if Mitsu does build something more capable, they need to keep it marketable to a larger segment. It all boils down to profits. If Mitsu can't make money off it by selling in large numbers, then it won't be as appealing to them to dump money into R&D and design.

My thoughts on diesel: I love my Jeep Liberty's engine, VM Motori 2.8 turbo diesel with close to 300ft/lb of torque and enough HP to keep up with traffic no problem. Everything Chrysler surrounded it with, including the entire drivetrain is [censored]. If it were paid off, the engine would be swapped into something else and the rest of it cheerfully sent off for scrap. The bean counters at Chrysler really killed the potential this little rig could have had.

To sum it up, step back a couple of decades in size and complexity, give it modern "retro" styling, put in a capable efficient powerplant, and sell the crap out of them.

Kane




1999 Montero SAS'd on Kings and stuff

1998 Montero trying to get a V8 Swapped
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: TOASTY] #1064083 09/21/13 04:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,134
TOASTY Offline OP
Trail Leader
*****
On the topic of marketing, what i suggested (and it seems you guys are also on board)was offering all trucks in a base model configuration with the add ons and upgrades available through the individual dealerships. This keeps the costs down and allows the dealer to make more money on after sales, you can't sell cars without selling some dealerships. Nobody wants to buy a dealership if they can't make any money off of it, we lost a lot of mitsu dealers in the ressesion.
The other plus is being able to have a seriously lower list price on vehicles and bring people in, it also allows us on a budget to buy and slowly build their rig they way we want.
Even if we build something way better than anything available on the 4x4 market it won't matter if it costs more than a Wrangler. Not until it's proven anyway.

I have another really cool actual marketing stratagy aimed directly against the JK and FJ <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


1999 Montero SAS'd on Kings and stuff

1998 Montero trying to get a V8 Swapped
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: TOASTY] #1064084 09/22/13 01:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 8,557
LandRaider Offline
Forum Moderator
*****
My Must Have options would be.
#1 Diesel Engine option. 4 cylinder is fine.
#2 Lockers
#3 low gearing
#4 ability to run 33's eaisly.


I'd LOVE to see optional PTO winch, Soft Top,


87 Raider 4D56td v5MT1
31's..Basically Stock
Re: New 4x4 concept [Re: LandRaider] #1064085 09/22/13 12:37 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,079
lordtrunks Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
must have a swb option

using the gen 2 platform is a good start but it needs to be updated

mitsu's current mivec 3.8 is a modern power plant with good power that match up well against toyota nissan and jeep i don't think using anything with less power would be a good idea and will end up being a instant strike against it

mitsu does offer a clean diesel line the 4N14 is a 2.2L with 174 hp and 280ftlbs of torque now unless they have a higher output version in the pipe my guess this would be the motor of choice i don't think the 3.2(4m41) is up to current standards but if i'm wrong on that that could also be a choice.

Gotta have the 5 spd auto not because its better but because its current (everybody is doing it man)

as stated above by others a factory 3 speed tranfercase is just a easy one up on everyone. a 2:1(fast low range) and a 3.5:1(creeper low range) or lower would be nice

live axles are a must they could get away with using the 3 link radius arm setup front and rear its solid and reliable one could say a bit dated but its a system that really works well.

If its gotta be ifs your gonna have to ditch the t\bars for coil overs back to the modern thing here again.

Front and Rear Lockers say this thing goes anywhere

Bringing back the pto winch option would be a plus.

Now i under stand the axle ratios needing to be somewhat high to help lower emissions but offering lower ratios at a decent price as a factory aftermarket part that could be installed at the dealer level would be nice 4.90 5.xx ratios would be nice

as for inside washable think with a farmer or hunter or my dirty ass in mind no way i'm gonna get all the mud off my boots or other crap thats gonna get spilled or dumped inside
the truth is for me at least bare bones everthing manual cranks locks seats doesn't even need to come with a radio if i want that i'll go buy one and put it in my self or pay a shop to do it.


89 2 dr turbo diesel
89/88 "Backwoods sas"
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