</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans"> I think Ford's coming out with a hybrid Explorer next year. Maybe the Escape </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I did a research project in one of my upper level Economics classes on this. They will be releasing an Escape. A few Colleges are doing research in the hybrid 4x4 field as well. Looks to be a pretty cool deal (very promising too). We're not too far from this being reality, but the problem seems to be getting a ready supply of Hydrogen to convenient refueling stations (highly volatile gas = big boom in careless situations). Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my 2 pennies...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by bob large:
<strong>Well that said there are many good viable low pollution power plants that are coming to the market. One alternative is the E85 fuel. Its 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline. I.e. corn alcohol.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I wish I could get E85 here. In Iowa last summer, it was the highest octane stuff they had, but almost the cheapest. 83 or 85 octane was the only one cheaper.

I'd love to run E85 with my turbo. Buying premium here sucks.

--Dan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by hopa2000:
<strong>I think Ford's coming out with a hybrid Explorer next year. Maybe the Escape, not Explorer. Whatever. Either way...

I haven't seen the torque numbers for it but I don't think it's got a whole lot of juice. Not that soccer mom's need lots a torque to bring the groceries home anyway!! <img border="0" alt="[Hillbilly]" title="" src="graemlins/notooth.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">It's an Escape. And their goal power-wise was to make it perform as well as the uprated V6 engined model. It's supposed to get something like 50 mpg too.

--Dan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans"> Don't forget that batteries can be recycled! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">

Some batteries can be recycled. Most new types of batteries that are being produced for production electrics and hybrids that use batteries are very very expensive to recycle. If I remember correctly itÆs in the thousands of dollars.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">The problem with the ethanol industry is that with out the gorvnment's financial support, the industry would not be able to survive. Or at the very least Ethanol would be expensive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Yes that is so right. But I donÆt mind subsidizing the corn industrany so that we can take the money away from the oil cartels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I'd love to run E85 with my turbo. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">One thing you have to remember. You really shouldnÆt run E85 in a car that isnÆt made for it. The car needs to be a ôflexible fuel vehicleö. It normally is written on the gas cover lid. The other thing to remember is E85 dose not make as much horsepower as gasoline dose. It produces something like 11% less BTUÆs as gasoline dose. If you really want to run a fuel that produces more HP per gallon of fuel. Get some racing gas. Klotz, Trick, exc. TheyÆre an alcohol base fuel that is immensely clean compared to pump gas, and they produce about 15% more HP per Gallon. The other benefit of racing fuels is that you donÆt normaly need to modify you computer or O2 sensors. Although they do produce more heat, so an inter cooler or No2 ônitrous oxideö will help keep the temps down. But again with No2 you can run into lean out conditions that can severely damage your power plant. One of the problems with race gas is that it is about $15 to $35 a gallon. Not something youÆre going to use to get groceries with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Sword King:
<strong>Honda and Toyota have produced hybrids, but few seem to want them. I've never seen them outside California, and I travel through all the western states all winter long.
"All generalities, including this one, are false"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">The reason hybrids don't sell well is because of the cost. Few people are that bad at math. I looked into the Civic hybid recently and this is what I found. (All figures are Canadian)

Civic Hybrid - $28,500
Civic LX - $19,400 (compares closest in options)

Using the Transport Canada site ,
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/vehicles/home.cfm
drving 20,000 km per year and averaging 67 cents per litre for gas, cost of fuel yearly is...

Civic Hybrid - $639.00
Civic LX - $909.00

To make up the $9100 difference at a savings of $270 / year would take approx. 33 years and 674,000 KM of driving. Even Hondas don't last that long.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The nice thing about an electric motor for a 4x4 application is that they develop maximum torque at 'locked rotor', IE when the shaft isn't turning, so low speed crawling would be in the highest torque band.

'Green' power sources...Randii's right, most of them are just 'relocation' of the pollution.

Hydrogen is fairly non-polluting when burned, but requires large amounts of power from other sources to seperate it out of water.

Hydropower - don't forget (in the PNW at least) the salmon...there are groups up here that are lobbying to remove some of the existing dams (and yes, even after the West coast energy crisis last year they're still talking about it).

Wind - Avian mortality, low capacity factor (the amount of time you actually get the nameplate output from the facility), visual impacts.

Solar - a variety of fairly nasty environmental byproducts from producing the photovoltaic cells, again, low capacity factor, lots of real estate required for the arrays.

TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch...

Jay

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Hydrogen is fairly non-polluting when burned, but requires large amounts of power from other sources to separate it out of water.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">One thing to remember is hydrogen is mostly used in fuel cells. In a fuel cell the hydrogen isnÆt really burned. ItÆs just aloud to recombine with oxygen. So producing water. One really cool thing I heard recently is that Iceland has started a project thatÆs goal is to produce fuel cell vehicles and residential fuel cells with hydrogen pumping station all over Iceland. Since Iceland has an unlimited source of ac power in the way of stem powered generators because of the abundance of volcanic activity. They can produce oxygen and hydrogen through a process called ôelectrolysisö. Thus the expense of creating hydrogen is almost completely eliminated. And the cost of running a fuel cell is greatly reduced. But you still have the problem of having a tank of hydrogen in you rig. Not something I would want to carry around.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by bob large:
<strong>[QUOTE]In a fuel cell the hydrogen isnÆt really burned. ItÆs just aloud to recombine with oxygen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans"></strong>
Long, boring, OT reply deleted...

Sorry folks!

Jay

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Pyro4117 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by muskyamigo:
<strong>
I think one of the magazines ran an article about somone who brought an electric landrover to Moab. The truck did just fine, I think they even ran Kane creek or something with it. Unfortunatly I think I saw it in a Landrover Magazine, so I don't have the article, and wouldn't know where to start looking o track it down.
Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">The article Was in Four Wheeler December 2001 Vol. 38, NO.12 Article name was called "Lectro'Wheeling" It was a 69 Land rover with a FB1-4001 Electric motor, At 120 volts can produce upto 965 lb-ft of torque at 0 rpm when supplied with 2,865 amps. HP was 100(max) Torque was 450 lb-ft at 0 rpm with 16 12 volt Optima Batteries adding up to 192 volts, They fitted it with a generator for long range but batteries lastes about 25-45 miles on the trail and 20-40 on the highway, tops speed was 80mph. If anyoen wants a copy of the article let me know, i can scan it and send it no problem

yeah, we had a battery recycler here in Dallas for decades. Poisoned the entire neighborhood. Lead in soil and kids...