If war comes to our soil, you can bet a certain few will be cowering. Well said Powell, well said.

thanks for the kind words, Powell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I did get pretty upset last night, and I only deleted my last post because I thought it sounded too much like a personal attack, and I told Phil (the moderator, not the one I've been arguing with) that I would stop the personal attacks.

I may be a hothead when it comes to what I believe to be anti-Americanism by Americans, but thats just because I've put up with so many people trashing this, the greatest Country in History, that I can't hold it in all the time.

Yes, I did resort to name-calling. Yes I did say that I wished harm upon another for his anti-American comments. Yes, I should have just shut up.

I'm sorry to anyone on here that I consider a friend, if I contributed in lowering the standards of this forum.

I will try very hard from now on not to respond to anyone in this manner again.
(I will try!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by bretwalda:
<strong>This is hopeless mrGuy. I honestly had no intention of insulting you. I guess that proves the intillectual level this has spiraled to. Just wanted some real debate of which you have proven to be completely incapable of. This obviously cant go much further with you insisting everything coming from me is an untruth. For the record, I never accused you of calling me a democrat. You did call me a liberal/socialist. I provided a little background that anyone with reasonable sense could decipher that I'm not.

The true anti-American sentiment becomes all too obvious when those that post more than an "Amen" to your ranting are told that they "deserve none of the rights that so many have died preserving for you". Not only are statements like that anti-American, they're scary.

The fact that Bush Jr. has thrown to the wind the international goodwill that was bestowed on us after 9/11, signed off many of our most important liberties, as well as demolished the foreign relationships that took DECADES for our former, greater Republican Presidents to build may be of little consequence to you, but they concern me and many others who personally would like to see that our freedoms are preserved as the constitution provides, and our integrity with our neighbor nations secured so we can all live in peace.

If being outnumbered makes my opinion wrong, well I guess you win mrGUY.

P.S. For our friends on this forum who have family and friends over there now my prayers are with them for a swift victory and safe return home.

...nice, apparently there's enough time in the day to do some deleting and changing of your posts, what other cheap tricks will you use to make your point?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Bret,

You said: The fact that Bush Jr. has thrown to the wind the international goodwill that was bestowed on us after 9/11.

I say: Please elaborate? He was very thankful and appreciative of the international goodwill. He's invited many of the countries to visit. We continue to offer humanitarian aid to many countries throughout the world. Even some that didn't support us.

You said: ...signed off many of our most important liberties

I say: Please be specific here. I agree that we should be very careful balancing increased homeland security vs. loss of liberties. However, I don't mind taking my shoes off at the airport. I don't mind getting a wand massage with my arms and legs spread as long as the security person is a good looking woman... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You said: .. as well as demolished the foreign relationships that took DECADES for our former, greater Republican Presidents to build may be of little consequence to you, but they concern me and many others who personally would like to see that our freedoms are preserved as the constitution provides,

I say: We haven't demolished foreign relationships. We gave up on the UN in the name of national security. Now other nations are respecting our decision and are joining the coalition. End result? The UN has failed in its mission. They have lost face. This is their own doing not ours. If they had followed through by backing up 1441 with a united front against Saddam, there is a good chance we wouldn't be fighting this war today. They empowered Saddam by waffling for 12 years. We waffled with them until 9/11. Never again. We are preserving our American way of life by fighting a war on terror. If we follow through, our children and grand-children will have a better chance to exercise the freedom we have today.

You said: ... integrity with our neighbor nations secured so we can all live in peace.

I say: We are not punishing our neighbor nations that don't back our war on terror. We're punishing only those leaders that choose to sponsor terror. We certainly will call a spade a spade... such as explaining why we stopped pursuing UN backing. I know we must disagree on this point, but when there is evil in the world (always is) and you identify a source of evil, you don't make peace with evil through smothering them with goodwill or looking for common ground. You fight for good, vanquish the evil, destroy their ability to wage evil and then you have peace. We have peace with Japan... we consider them our number two best ally next to Great Britain. They support our actions in Iraq and have even offered to help. Wait a minute? Weren't they our mortal enemy? Didn't they destroy the Pacific fleet in 1941? How did we get peace with them and now have them as an ally? We fought a war. We conquered Japan. We destroyed their ability to wage war. We crushed their willingness to fight. We rebuilt their country and gave them a constitution similar to ours that eventually gave them the freedom to elect their own leaders and now they are a peaceful nation. Germany is a friend and fellow NATO ally. Yes, we have our disagreements, but we still consider them an ally. Wait a minute? Isn't this the nation led by an evil dictator that slaughtered 6 million jews and many other people? Isn't this the country that wanted to conquer all of Europe? How can this be? We fought a war. We crushed our enemy. We destroyed their ability to wage war. We rebuilt the country and gave them a constitution like ours and now they are a powerful nation and an ally. Peace exists when there is a powerful deterrant to doing evil.

Powell

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by mrGUY:
<strong>thanks for the kind words, Powell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will try very hard from now on not to respond to anyone in this manner again.
(I will try!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Don't try too hard... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Powell

<img src="http://www.crescendopro.com/jason/bush_war.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[Hillbilly]" title="" src="graemlins/notooth.gif" />

<img src="http://www.crescendopro.com/jason/using-internet.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Jason A ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Jason A:
<strong> <img src="http://www.crescendopro.com/jason/bush_war.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img border="0" alt="[Hillbilly]" title="" src="graemlins/notooth.gif" />

<img src="http://www.crescendopro.com/jason/using-internet.jpg" alt=" - " /></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I won't rebutt this one... if it works, it works!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

this it`s just a write from John Gerassi PhD of Quenn College, translated to spanish by Oskar Saraski, I know that this it`s a english language forum but this is interesting and it`s a view from all around the world, this does not reflect my point of view but........i`m not against it...

Reflexiones de un profesor estadounidense
John Gerassi
Queens, Nueva York (Estados Unidos), octubre del 2001

No puedo evitar llorar. Apenas veo a una persona en el televisor
detallando la trßgica historia de haber perdido a uno de los suyos en el
desastre de las Torres Gemelas, pierdo el control y me da por llorar.

Pero me pregunto por quÚ no llorÚ cuando nuestras tropas acabaron con
5,000 personas de bajos recursos en los barrios de El Chorrillo, en
Panamß, bajo el pretexto de buscar a Noriega. Nuestros lÝderes
sabÝan que Noriega estaba en otro lado, pero acabaron destruyendo El
Chorrillo.

Porque quienes vivÝan allÝ eran nacionalistas que querÝan a los Estados
Unidos fuera de su Panamß.

O peor a·n, por quÚ no llorÚ cuando asesinamos a dos millones de
vietnamitas, en su gran mayorÝa campesinos, en una guerra planificada por
el secretario de defensa, Robert MacNamara, quien sabÝa que no habÝa
manera de ganarla.

El otro dÝa fui a donar sangre. HabÝa un camboyano haciendo lo mismo, tres
en la fila, y eso me hizo recordar: ?por quÚ no llorÚ cuando el carnicero
de Pol Pot acab¾ con otro mill¾n de seres humanos, a quien apoyamos
dßndole armas y dinero porque era enemigo de nuestros "enemigos" (quien
eventualmente detuvo los campos de la muerte)?

Para quedarme levantado y dejar de llorar, esa noche me fui a ver una
pelÝcula. DecidÝ ver Lumumba, en el Film Forum, y de nuevo me di cuenta
que no habÝa llorado cuando mi gobierno organiz¾ el asesinato del
·nico lÝder decente que el Congo haya tenido, y en su lugar pusieron al
general Mobutu, avariento, vil y asesino. Ni llorÚ cuando mi gobierno sac¾
a Sukarno de Indonesia, defensor de la independencia de su paÝs y
hÚroe de la II Guerra Mundial contra los japoneses.

Pusimos en su lugar a Suharto, quien bajo la tutela de los japoneses ha
trabajado en eliminar a por lo
menos medio mill¾n de "marxistas" (en un paÝs donde si la gente ha
escuchado hablar de Marx, habrß sido cuando mucho de Groucho y en el
televisor).

Anoche, mirando el televisor, lloraba mirando la imagen de ese padre que
sufrÝa la pÚrdida de su ni±a de dos meses. Pero cuando recuerdo las
muertes de miles de salvadore±os, tan grßficamente descrita por Ray
Bonner, de la revista Time, o las violaciones de las monjas
estadounidenses a manos de agentes entrenados y pagados por la CIA, ni una
sola lßgrima derramÚ.

Incluso llorÚ cuando oÝ cußn valiente habÝa sido Barbara Olson, la esposa
del Procurador General, cuyas posturas polÝticas detesto. Pero no llorÚ
cuando Estados Unidos invadi¾ una maravillosa isla del caribe
llamada Granada y mat¾ civiles inocentes que esperaban mejorar sus vidas
construyendo un campo de aterrizaje para atraer mßs turistas, al que
nuestro gobierno dijo tener pruebas de que era una base rusa, pero que
una vez tomada la isla sigui¾ construyendo.

Por quÚ no llorÚ cuando Ariel Sharon, hoy primer ministro de Israel,
organiz¾ y luego orden¾ la masacre de dos mil palestinos en los campos de
refugiados de Sabra y Shatila.

Supongo que uno llora s¾lo por los propios. ?Pero es Ústa la raz¾n para
demandar venganza contra quien estÚ en contra nuestra? Eso parece ser lo
que los estadounidenses piden. Definitivamente eso es lo que
nuestro gobierno quiere, y la mayor parte de nuestros medios de
comunicaci¾n.

?En realidad creemos que tenemos el derecho de explotar a los pobres del
mundo para nuestro beneficio, s¾lo porque gritamos a los cuatro vientos
que somos libres y ellos no?

Iremos a la guerra. Definitivamente tenemos el derecho de perseguir a
quienes mataron a nuestros hermanos inocentes. Y venceremos,
definitivamente. Contra Bin Laden. Contra los talibanes. Contra Irak.
Contra quien sea.

En este proceso aniquilaremos ni±os que no tienen a·n ropa para el
invierno que se acerca, ni casa para protegerlos, ni escuelas donde
aprender por quÚ son culpables, a la edad de cuatro o seis a±os.

Tal vez los evangelistas Falwell o Robertson dirßn que sus muertes eran
necesarias porque no eran cristianos, y quizß alguien del Departamento de
Estado nos confirme que eran tan pobres que muertos estßn mejor.

?Y luego?

?Podremos hacer lo que nos dÚ la gana? Con todas las nuevas legislaciones
y vigilancia que nos espera, nadie se va a escapar, y nuestros presidentes
corporativos se sentirßn complacidos porque todos esos que demostraban
contra las corrientes globalizadoras ahora serßn parte del bando de los
malos.

No mßs protestas en Seattle, QuÚbec ni en GÚnova. Paz, al fin. Hasta la
pr¾xima vez. ?QuiÚn serß entonces? Un ni±o ya grande, que sobrevivi¾ la
matanza de El Chorrillo. Una ni±a nicarag³ense consciente de que
sus padres fueron asesinados por unos pandilleros llamados Contras,
entrenados por el manual de la CIA, que dice que para acabar con un
gobierno hay que
darle duro al pueblo, matando a maestros y mÚdicos para
desestabilizar los pilares del mismo. O tal vez sea un chileno enojado,
que se entere de que toda su familia fue exterminada por el secretario de
Estado de Nixon,
Henry Kissinger, quien a pesar de ser un genio de la polÝtica mundial
nunca pudo diferenciar entre comunismo y socialismo democrßtico, o ni
siquiera nacionalismo.

?Cußndo aprenderemos, los estadounidenses, que mientras sigamos queriendo
ser due±os del mundo para el beneficio de los pocos, nos va a tocar sufrir
las consecuencias? No hay guerra que pueda detener el terrorismo, no
mientras nosotros mismos usemos el terror para alcanzar nuestras metas.

Por eso ya no lloro mßs, y salgo a caminar. Pero salgo y veo gente que
llora por los bomberos que perecieron y tengo que regresar y escribir
esto. Mientras lo hago ahÝ estß el secretario Powell, diciÚndome que estß
bien matar a estos ni±os, estos seres necesitados, que odian a EE.UU.
porque nosotros somos civilizados y ellos no.

LlorÚ de nuevo. Y me dije, al terminar de escribir esto, que no lo debÝa
enviar: muchos de mis estudiantes y colegas me iban a odiar, quizß hacerme
da±o. Pero al ver la televisi¾n otra vez decidÝ arriesgarme. Tal vez, al
leer esto, una persona mßs se pregunte: ?por quÚ hay tanta gente en el
mundo preparada a morir s¾lo para darnos a probar un poco de lo que
nosotros les venimos dando desde hace mucho?

John Gerassi, PhD
Profesor de Ciencias PolÝticas
Queens College
Traducci¾n de Oskar Sarasky

Well, that says it all...... Probably. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This is what I have to say, in Spanish: Pajero <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pa-hair-ro <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />