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Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311115 09/14/03 03:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 437
JSharp Offline
Mudrunner
After you make tire and/or final drive changes you need to change the internal reduction ratio of the spedometer drive within the transmision, either by changing gears or in the case of modern transmissions with an electronic speed sensor by changing the output of that sensor.

If you start playing with final drive gearing and tire sizes I think you'll notice something that's counterintuitive but true. The RPM you're turning at a given speed indicated by the speedometer won't change but your true speed vs. what's indicated by the speedometer will.

Think of it this way.

The tachometer measures engine RPM.
The speedometer measures driveline RPM after some gear reduction within the transmission but before the final drive, and displays it as a MPH display. They are both measuring RPM but the speedo is calibrated to display MPH for a given RPM reading.

The above is not applicable if the vehicle uses a wheel speed sensor to determine speed though I don't know of any that do...

Last edited by JSharp; 09/14/03 03:44 PM.

2000 4Runner SR-5, 4X4, 5 Speed, Toyota locker.
Dunlop R/T's, cheap mudflaps, remote oil filter, Deckplate, K & N filter.

My 4Runner
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: JSharp] #311116 09/14/03 04:01 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 660
dragr1 Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Quote
After you make tire and/or final drive changes you need to change the internal reduction ratio of the spedometer drive within the transmision, either by changing gears or in the case of modern transmissions with an electronic speed sensor by changing the output of that sensor.

If you start playing with final drive gearing and tire sizes I think you'll notice something that's counterintuitive but true. The RPM you're turning at a given speed indicated by the speedometer won't change but your true speed vs. what's indicated by the speedometer will.

Think of it this way.

The tachometer measures engine RPM.
The speedometer measures driveline RPM after some gear reduction within the transmission but before the final drive, and displays it as a MPH display. They are both measuring RPM but the speedo is calibrated to display MPH for a given RPM reading.

The above is not applicable if the vehicle uses a wheel speed sensor to determine speed though I don't know of any that do...


So even though the ratio of the tire height vs gear ratio that I have now is very close to the stock ratio, my speedo can still be off. This is what you are saying, correct?


1985 Toyota 4Runner, dual e-lockers, exo and more

2007 Toyota Tacoma Crewcab TRD 4x4

2000 Suburban 2500 4x4

1991 Tiffin Allegro Class A MHome (Ole Krusty)
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311117 09/14/03 04:03 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 660
dragr1 Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Anyone here remember what rpm's they turned with the stock 225's and 5 spd, with either 4.10's or 3.90's?

I believe Phong? has 32's and 4.56's with a 5 spd, anyone know what rpm's he turns?


1985 Toyota 4Runner, dual e-lockers, exo and more

2007 Toyota Tacoma Crewcab TRD 4x4

2000 Suburban 2500 4x4

1991 Tiffin Allegro Class A MHome (Ole Krusty)
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311118 09/14/03 06:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 437
JSharp Offline
Mudrunner
Quote

So even though the ratio of the tire height vs gear ratio that I have now is very close to the stock ratio, my speedo can still be off. This is what you are saying, correct?


Yes. Think of it in percentages. For instance, if you change from the stock tire diameter by 10%, you'll need a 10% change of your final drive gearing to get back to where you started.

Example - we go from a 30" tire to a 33" tire, a 10% change.

Now if we had a 4.00 rear to start, we'd need to change to a rear that was 110% of the old rear ratio to get back to where we started.

4.00 X 1.10 = 4.40 and we're effectively back to stock. But we have bigger tires now...
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just divide the new tire size by the old one, then use that number to determine the change needed in final drive ratio to get back to the same overall ratio...

Last edited by JSharp; 09/14/03 06:14 PM.

2000 4Runner SR-5, 4X4, 5 Speed, Toyota locker.
Dunlop R/T's, cheap mudflaps, remote oil filter, Deckplate, K & N filter.

My 4Runner
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: JSharp] #311119 09/14/03 07:51 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 660
dragr1 Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Quote
Quote

So even though the ratio of the tire height vs gear ratio that I have now is very close to the stock ratio, my speedo can still be off. This is what you are saying, correct?


Yes. Think of it in percentages. For instance, if you change from the stock tire diameter by 10%, you'll need a 10% change of your final drive gearing to get back to where you started.

Example - we go from a 30" tire to a 33" tire, a 10% change.

Now if we had a 4.00 rear to start, we'd need to change to a rear that was 110% of the old rear ratio to get back to where we started.

4.00 X 1.10 = 4.40 and we're effectively back to stock. But we have bigger tires now...
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just divide the new tire size by the old one, then use that number to determine the change needed in final drive ratio to get back to the same overall ratio...


Ok, went from 225's (28.4"-Firestone website) with 3.90's to

32's (31.8") with 4.30's

That's an increase of 11.97% in tire size and a 10.26% increase in gearing, so overall a 1.71% decrease, which means that 75 mph should be 73.7 mph. I'm overall 5 mph off, what gives?

Maybe I should measure the diameter of the tire on the ground and use that figure?


1985 Toyota 4Runner, dual e-lockers, exo and more

2007 Toyota Tacoma Crewcab TRD 4x4

2000 Suburban 2500 4x4

1991 Tiffin Allegro Class A MHome (Ole Krusty)
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311120 09/15/03 02:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 437
JSharp Offline
Mudrunner
Quote
Quote
Quote

So even though the ratio of the tire height vs gear ratio that I have now is very close to the stock ratio, my speedo can still be off. This is what you are saying, correct?


Yes. Think of it in percentages. For instance, if you change from the stock tire diameter by 10%, you'll need a 10% change of your final drive gearing to get back to where you started.

Example - we go from a 30" tire to a 33" tire, a 10% change.

Now if we had a 4.00 rear to start, we'd need to change to a rear that was 110% of the old rear ratio to get back to where we started.

4.00 X 1.10 = 4.40 and we're effectively back to stock. But we have bigger tires now...
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just divide the new tire size by the old one, then use that number to determine the change needed in final drive ratio to get back to the same overall ratio...


Ok, went from 225's (28.4"-Firestone website) with 3.90's to

32's (31.8") with 4.30's

That's an increase of 11.97% in tire size and a 10.26% increase in gearing, so overall a 1.71% decrease, which means that 75 mph should be 73.7 mph. I'm overall 5 mph off, what gives?

Maybe I should measure the diameter of the tire on the ground and use that figure?


I agree. You should be a lot closer than you are. In fact, I'd think you should be about perfect. It means one or more of these things.

The tires are different than the spec sheet says.
The speedo was off in the beginning.

Keep in mind if you replaced worn 225's with new 32's the 225's had lost quite a bit of diameter from wear. A lot of truck type tires will run 16/32 tread depth. Which means if you wear them smooth you've lost 1/2" from each side or a full 1" in diameter...

--
Jim - who feels he's probably not helping you a bit even though he'd like to...

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


2000 4Runner SR-5, 4X4, 5 Speed, Toyota locker.
Dunlop R/T's, cheap mudflaps, remote oil filter, Deckplate, K & N filter.

My 4Runner
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: JSharp] #311121 09/15/03 02:31 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 660
dragr1 Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote

So even though the ratio of the tire height vs gear ratio that I have now is very close to the stock ratio, my speedo can still be off. This is what you are saying, correct?


Yes. Think of it in percentages. For instance, if you change from the stock tire diameter by 10%, you'll need a 10% change of your final drive gearing to get back to where you started.

Example - we go from a 30" tire to a 33" tire, a 10% change.

Now if we had a 4.00 rear to start, we'd need to change to a rear that was 110% of the old rear ratio to get back to where we started.

4.00 X 1.10 = 4.40 and we're effectively back to stock. But we have bigger tires now...
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just divide the new tire size by the old one, then use that number to determine the change needed in final drive ratio to get back to the same overall ratio...


Ok, went from 225's (28.4"-Firestone website) with 3.90's to

32's (31.8") with 4.30's

That's an increase of 11.97% in tire size and a 10.26% increase in gearing, so overall a 1.71% decrease, which means that 75 mph should be 73.7 mph. I'm overall 5 mph off, what gives?

Maybe I should measure the diameter of the tire on the ground and use that figure?


I agree. You should be a lot closer than you are. In fact, I'd think you should be about perfect. It means one or more of these things.

The tires are different than the spec sheet says.
The speedo was off in the beginning.

Keep in mind if you replaced worn 225's with new 32's the 225's had lost quite a bit of diameter from wear. A lot of truck type tires will run 16/32 tread depth. Which means if you wear them smooth you've lost 1/2" from each side or a full 1" in diameter...

--
Jim - who feels he's probably not helping you a bit even though he'd like to...

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Well, I was using the 28.4" for the factory, but when I bought the vehicle used, it had 30x9.50's. I don't remember what rpm's it turned then, the 2700rpm at an indicated 70 mph was with the 32's.

Just to make this even more complicated, I just measured the 32's on level ground on the truck. They meausred out 30.75". Now, I'm really confused. Maybe the speedo was way off from the factory?


1985 Toyota 4Runner, dual e-lockers, exo and more

2007 Toyota Tacoma Crewcab TRD 4x4

2000 Suburban 2500 4x4

1991 Tiffin Allegro Class A MHome (Ole Krusty)
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311122 09/17/03 07:55 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
I just went out and drove mine and took some measurements, then looked up my diff gear ratio. (What do you expect, I'm laid off and bored.) I have no way to check actual speed...

I have the stock 8" 2 pinion 4.10 open diff, (B03A on the door jam).

I have 31" MTRs, w/13K miles that also measure at 30.75".

At 70mph (speedo) in 5th, I was at 2600rpms; in 3rd, (the way I normally drive), 4500rpms.

It doesn't prove anything, but it killed an hour! LOL

Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311123 09/17/03 09:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 437
JSharp Offline
Mudrunner
Quote


Just to make this even more complicated, I just measured the 32's on level ground on the truck. They meausred out 30.75". Now, I'm really confused. Maybe the speedo was way off from the factory?


This is what I've been wondering. How accurate was it before...

Anyway, do a search. I know someone has posted a link to module that modifies the speed sensor output and allows you actually get an accurate speedo reading no matter what you've done with tires or final drive ratios.


2000 4Runner SR-5, 4X4, 5 Speed, Toyota locker.
Dunlop R/T's, cheap mudflaps, remote oil filter, Deckplate, K & N filter.

My 4Runner
Re: 5 speed Guys-RPM's at 70 mph [Re: dragr1] #311124 09/18/03 12:24 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
FWIW...

Brand spanking one week old new BFG A/T's.
31x10.5x15
410 rear end.
5-Speed.
2850rpm @ 70mph in 5th gear.
Now whats' that tell us?

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" /> RoadKill

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