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Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: mechanic58] #334531 10/23/03 04:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,731
elripster Offline
Roll Me Over
Quote
Pay attention...I said "STINGRAY" bodied corvettes. Pre 1968. The Bus in question was about a '62 model panel...no side windows and no camper top. Just a plain old smoothie.


Pay attention. I said provide details. I'm still claiming BS on this one. I found drag coefficients for vettes in those years but not the sting ray specifically, still from then to now they have all tested around .29 to .3. If you want us to believe that some how a VW van goes from .44 to .28ish, which don't *think* any street legal car as EVER reached, prove it.

Still, it's a pointless claim anyway because, if you were paying attention, it is the drag FORCE that matters, not the coefficient.

Frank.


1994 4runner, 3.0, auto, 4.88's, 31's, BJ spacers, Coil spacers, air shocks, D-ring anchors, 4Crawler F/R swaybar discos.
www.sdori.com
Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: elripster] #334532 10/23/03 04:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,192
DirtyHarry Offline
Toyota Moderator
Play nice together guys. Remember we are discussing the aerodynamics of tailgates here, no need to get all worked up.

Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: DirtyHarry] #334533 10/23/03 05:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,731
elripster Offline
Roll Me Over
I'll play nice.

Frank.


1994 4runner, 3.0, auto, 4.88's, 31's, BJ spacers, Coil spacers, air shocks, D-ring anchors, 4Crawler F/R swaybar discos.
www.sdori.com
Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: Robinhood150] #334534 10/23/03 05:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,520
Robinhood150 Offline OP
Body Damage is Cool
I haven't done any more research on this, but one of my friends said that ME student's study is the ONE study on the net that says having the tailgate down is better. I guess I'll have to wait until I get the windtunnel installed in my backyard to see who is right. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Steve
My Website ||Gettin' off 4wheel drive club member
'93 4Runner V6 4x4 auto tranny
If you have to ask about a SAS, you're not ready for it.
Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: Robinhood150] #334535 10/23/03 05:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,520
Robinhood150 Offline OP
Body Damage is Cool
On a different note, one of my professors once said the old 50's cars with the swooped down trunks had a better CD than modern cars. The reason they did that was to get better mileage...it turns out it takes more energy to lug that huge rear end up a hill than what the aerodynamics save.


Steve
My Website ||Gettin' off 4wheel drive club member
'93 4Runner V6 4x4 auto tranny
If you have to ask about a SAS, you're not ready for it.
Post deleted by little_joe [Re: mechanic58] #334536 10/23/03 06:12 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: aerodynamics of tailgates #334537 10/23/03 06:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 456
dknight Offline
Mudrunner
I noticed a change in gas milage when I added a toneu cover. Maybe 1-2 mpg increase. I noticed a loss in gas milage when I removed the toneu and replace it with an aluminum cap. maybe 2-3 mpg.

before I put a tonue cover on, I tried tailgate up and down, didn't notice any difference.

Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: Robinhood150] #334538 10/23/03 06:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 934
gota87toy Offline
Rock Warrior
Source Artical

Quote
From "Click and Clack":

Dear Tom and Ray:

I read your recent article in which a reader (also named Kathy) asked whether a pickup truck gets better gas mileage with the tailgate up or down. You guys said "down." My husband and I made a very large bet about the very same issue. I work for GM as an engineering intern and had a chance a couple of weeks ago to tour the design facilities in Detroit. When I got to the wind-tunnel building, I asked the engineers this same question. They laughed and demonstrated that trucks are designed so the airflow creates the least amount of drag when it flows off the roof and past the tailgate in the upright position. They said that leaving the tailgate down would actually decrease a truck's fuel mileage. So guess who won the bet, guys? -- Kathy

Ray: We know who won the bet, Kathy, because we received letters about this from engineers scattered throughout the automotive industry.

Tom: Here's one that offers a more technical explanation for you (still) nonbelievers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Tom and Ray:

I'm an aerodynamics engineer. When I was in the U.S. Air Force a few years back, I worked with folks from the Lockheed low-speed wind tunnel. In the 1970s, aircraft production went into a slump, and Lockheed started looking for other customers for its wind-tunnel services. Prime candidates were the auto makers, and Lockheed was successful in convincing Ford, among others, that the wind tunnel would help them reduce drag and wind noise on their vehicles. Needless to say, in the past 15-20 years, Lockheed has learned a lot about car and truck aerodynamics. Anyway, they actually performed drag tests on pickups with the tailgate both up and down, and found that drag was actually LOWER with the tailgate CLOSED! This ran counter to their intuition (and yours). The reason is that a closed tailgate sets up a large "bubble" of stagnant air that slowly circulates around the bed of the truck (we aero types call this a "separated bubble"). When air approaches the truck, it "sees" the bubble as part of the truck. So to the air, the truck looks like it has a nice, flat covering over the bed, and the air doesn't "slam" into the vertical tailgate. If the tailgate is open, or replaced by one of those "air gate" nets, however, that nice, separate bubble in the truck bed does not form (it "bursts"). Then the air approaching the truck "sees" a truck with a flat bed on the back of a tall cab. This is a very nonaerodynamic shape with a very LARGE drag. So, believe it or not, it's best for gas mileage to keep the tailgate CLOSED. Hope this information is helpful. Ed Fitzgerald, Research Assistant, Dept. of Aero/Mechanical Engineering, U. of Notre Dame

Tom: Sounds pretty convincing, Ed. Thanks. We also heard from none other than Bob Stempel, the former GM president, who wrote us to say that aerodynamically it doesn't make that much difference. But, he says, a pickup truck is structurally much SAFER with the tailgate up.

Ray: So for that reason alone, we suggest you throw away those tailgate nets, folks. And as your flight attendant might say, please return your tailgate to the upright and locked position.

* * *

Trucks, Tailgates and Mileage: The Definitive Word?

From: Kathy Bretz

Tom and Ray:

I read your article on Friday, August 15, 1997, when another reader (also named Kathy) asked whether a pickup truck gets better gas mileage with the tailgate down.

Ironically, my husband and I have bet our bank account against each other on this very question. I work for GM as an engineering intern and had a chance a couple weeks ago to tour the design facilities in Detroit. When I got to the wind-tunnel building, I asked the engineers this very same question.

They laughed and demonstrated that trucks are designed so the airflow creates the least amount of drag when it flows off the roof and past the tailgate in the upright position.

With the absence of a tailgate, or when the gate is down, the drag begins at the cab, and not at the tailgate. So, leaving the tailgate down would actually decrease a truck's fuel mileage due to larger drag.

Now, Tom, not to give you too hard a time about your "vertical wall" logic, but you better let your brother Ray guess which one of us won the bet!





"Nine-11 changed me," he said. "I'm shocked that it didn't change the whole country, frankly."

Dennis Miller
Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: gota87toy] #334539 10/23/03 07:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,731
elripster Offline
Roll Me Over
It would be interesting to see the details of the test, like how fast and were the trucks modified? It could be that since our trucks are much higher off the ground and have more air passing under them it is altering the effects. Maybe we are seeing a lot of drag behind the tail gate as opposed to infront, that is eliminated when the tail gate is down.

Frank.


1994 4runner, 3.0, auto, 4.88's, 31's, BJ spacers, Coil spacers, air shocks, D-ring anchors, 4Crawler F/R swaybar discos.
www.sdori.com
Re: aerodynamics of tailgates [Re: Robinhood150] #334540 10/23/03 09:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 612
M
mechanic58 Offline
Rock Warrior
UNCLE! But I still think drivin with your tailgate down is DUMB. I still laugh everytime I see it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


2007 Ford F150 Supercab
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