I'll give Banchi105 a prop-up.

He is exactly right. It's not fair to compare Isuzu to Honda or Toyota as they sell 10x more of one single model than Isuzu does of all their vehicles combined in the USA. When you talk problems, you have to talk percentages and we can't do that. If you know two bad Toyotas out of the MILLIONS they sold last year (or two bad ones over the tens of millions they sold in the last decade), then that's pretty damn good.

If you know a few bad Isuzu's out of the 30,000 they sold last year, à..that's pretty bad. You have to give some credit to CNN/Fox/JD Power (but not Consumers Union!) and other sites as they comb all owners and base ratings off percentages. If someone on this board can show me where they used scientific polling procedures to check with thousands of Isuzu, Toyota, and Honda owners, I'll give their opinion a little more wieght.

You also have to look at how the companies respond to problems. How long did Isuzu drag their feet over oil consumption/burning problems before even admitting it existed? What about all the threads saying " Just pull the fuse on the anti-lock brakes since they activate when you don't want them to, and don't activate when you need them." ETC for all the other common problems we discuss like shorted out alternators...and the new 3.5 liter puts it right back on bottom again. Stupid engineering. Problems? ETC.

If Isuzu was at the top of the charts and one guy had a complaint, everyone would be using these same sources as support. Another good example: During the Insurance Crash Test ratings last year, Hondas did average. They took the new data they got and re-engineered their SUV's, rebuilt, and resubmitted in a matter of a couple months. They passed with great results and recalled all old models to upgrade them. American car companies scored low and said, "Eh." Kia was the worst and didn't care at all. You can't beat corporate Honda and Toyota for good quality and service, and dedication to the customer. They wouldn't say "All our vehicles burn a quart every 1000 miles? Just pull over and add another quart. What? Every 500 miles? Make it 2 quarts then."

I love my Isuzu Amigo, but realize I'm on an Isuzu board with guys who are dedicated to Isuzu's and take extra care of their Isuzu's. For the average Joe buyer, Isuzu has had below average quality. We were the bastard on GM's line, now we're being built by Sabaru. Do you really think they try as hard to build the competition's car as they do their own?

On the plus size, sometimes quality also has little to do with loyalty. This is the same board that trounced on Hummers for having the absolute lowest quality on JD Power-ùbelow Kia and Hyundai. Yet Hummer owners are fiercely loyal. But when it comes to Isuzu...well, you can't trust those JD Power guys.

Again, I love my Isuzu, it's a good deal for the money, but you are taking more of a risk. Quality work and extra inspections/review cost more. Paying more for quality is just like buying insurance. Reputations for quality are earned by putting out a superior product over many years, with superior customer service to back it up. I like Isuzu products for the money, but do realize it's a risk and NOT in the same quality level as Honda or Toyota.

And I hope when Isuzu completes their move to Thailand and has their own factory, it includes an increase in product quality.

In October, I responded to a poll that asked me about all cars owned and asked about my willingness to buy the manufacturer's current offerings. I too said that I would not buy another ISUZU, but wrote that my reason was because ISUZU does not currently make a vehicle that I want. (The Rodeo needs a redesign, the 7 passenger Ascender is too big, the Axiom is too mini-vanny and they don't import a P'up). I own 2 Isuzu's and a Dodge, so a pollster looking for quick numbers would have counted me 3 times.

So, if they only charted my initial answer without including my comments, it would appear that I don't like the ISUZU brand - which would be an inaccurate assumption.

I've worked on several political campaigns and polls are always interesting, but they are usually crafted to validate what the pollster wants to "prove" for whomever comissioned the poll. Due in part to their dismal advertising budget, ISUZU doesn't have many friends in the media. The notion of getting what you pay for works in the media too.

That being said, I would still rate Toyota #1, but ISUZU would be near the top.

Oh, and by the way, I have 305,000 miles on my Trooper and 89,000 on the P'up.

I have to disagree with you. When you go to the middle
of nowhere, which vehicle you will use ? Isuzu, Hammer or
etc regardless what JD Powers says. I always wonder
how they calculate the 'reliability'. Are you aware than
a broken capholder and a blown engine both have the weight
of 1 (one) claim ? I'd rather risk to have 10 or 20 broken
capholders than a broken T-case on the trail. You cannot
hide your head in sand and you cannot pretend that you do not
know about real-world realiability of your friend's cars.
I have numerious examples of faults of new Japan, Korean,
American and German cars around me (surprisingly,
the most popular problem for my friends is a broken auto
tranny right between Los Angeles and San Francisco, in an
unpopulated area). My Rodeo have not had any significant
problem at all. What should I do with this info ? I'd be
very stupid to sell my trusted Rodeo and to buy a Toyota
Highlander or a Ford Escape for the sole
reason that the Consumer Reports did some unjustified
(by my personal experience) researches.

I'd not throw stones toward the Isuzu/Subaru factory
in NA. What I've read so far is that, according to the
internal Isuzu's statistics, their NA factory has LESS claims
than the Japan factory. And Subarus from the same factory
are among the most reliable vehicles in the America,
according to your beloved charts.

BTW, my 2002 Rodeo's alternator/starter/etc is located
properly. To be precise, I do not care where they are
located. My Rodeo can go thru 20-30" of water without any
problem, as I was able to see multiple times this winter,
when I had to cross Mojave river in different places around
Afton Canyon, and when I had to cross the flood in the
Death Valley. This is about the engineering of NA Isuzus.

When last time I checked the Rodeo's reliability on Edmunds
(or MSN auto - I do not remember), it had all the best points
around, especially for last years. Even Consumer Reports
is not bad about Rodeo in terms of reliability.
I do not know what are you talking
about, guys, and where did you get your figures.



Oleg

I've had 4 hondas. All were bought used.
Honda 1 was in the shop constantly. I've never even heard someone tell stories about having a car as unreliable as that one was.

Honda 2 self destructed right after I had a new alternator put in. The thermostat gauge was dead center when the car was running but that didn't stop it from over-heating to the point that it cracked the engine. totaled.

Honda 3 I wrecked with 220,000 miles on it. Ran like a top...right into that telephone pole.

Honda 4... see honda 1. Well, not that bad. but very frustrating.

I did have a Toyota tercel that wouldn't die though. that thing defined reliablity.

My point is, you could get a reliable honda and have it end up like my #'s 1, 2, or 4. All of which sound worse or equal to what you are dealing with. So yeah, sell it and get a tercel <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

In 151k hard miles my 96 trooper has had (3) three problems.

1. AC condensor bearing replaced
2. Plastic radiator plug broke
3. Starter went out (145K miles)

I'd say that says something about reliability.
and I'm a big fan of regular maintenance.

//dx

Where did I get my information on
1. Oil leaks. Use above search button.
2. Alternator problems. Use above search engine.
3. Anti-Lock Brakes: Search NTSB, Isuzu Tech bulletins (finally out), and above search button.
If you find no search returns to any of these, I'll take the time to help. If it wasn't clear, I'm not saying ALL Isuzu's are bad, but they have a higher rate of problems compared to the more expensive vehicles in the same class. Honestly, if I said Kia had lower prices and more problems than Isuzu, would the responses be like this?

JD Power: How they work, rank, what they do (and please note it's INITIAL quality, not long-term durability):
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/auto.jsp (many links to explain on that page and sub-pages)
Rankings:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-05-17-jdpower.htm

I'm going to turn this one around:
Build quality in Sabaru plant: Mine was a conjecture, as stated. Oleg stated "What I've read so far is that, according to the internal Isuzu's statistics, their NA factory has LESS claims." I tried Isuzu and Isuzunewsbureau.com, as well as their marketing page and one japan page I have. No luck. Please tell me where you get your references, including where Sabaru ranks high in quality.
2003 Study: http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/search.asp?CatID=1
Scroll down to: 2003 Initial Quality Study
Having lived in New England, I know that people swear by their Sabaru's (and even remember the song "Makin' Love In A Sabaru....")

I agree with Consumers Union/Consumers report being biased and I'm glad you're alternator has been fine. MOST are. But again (see #2 above), it appears there's an ABOVE AVERAGE problem with them shorting out in water. Electricity + Water = not good. Add road salt and there's an INCREASED PROBABILITY of problems due to the alternator being placed low.

Again, I go back to this: In many non-related surveys by many organizations with good reputations, Isuzu is NOT at the top of quality surveys. Resale prices have been bemoaned on this board (USE THE SEARCH BUTTON, AOBVE). North America sales dropped from 127,630 (1986) to 30,000 (2003). Either there's a huge world-wide cospiracy against Isuzu, or the quality on Isuzu's is not as high as, say, Honda or Toyota.

This does not make Isuzu bad! I find their VALUE and trade-off to be excellent and like Isuzu's. I (just me) find Toyota's SUV's to be overpriced for the level of quality you do get. Many consumers disagree with us.

When you go to the middle of nowhere, which vehicle you will use ?
Pointless question. If it's in the no roads, my Amigo, of course--I only have one 4x4! Unless you're talking middle of nowhere on curvey roads, then it's my motorcycle. Or middle of nowhere, rainy, and few gas stations--then I'd want a Toyota Prius. Or if it was middle of nowhere muddy--I'd want to borrow 33bogger's ride. If it's middle of nowhere Iraq-Talil run, I want a Hummer with the extra plates welded on, and the 101st around me.

In general, Isuzu is a good vehicle which a good price-point value and acceptable risk in terms of quality/chance of breaking down. I like it. I plug it to my friends. I'm going to get another. It's my opinion, and not a popular one (otherwise sales would be higher).

YMMV.

so, you really believe Toyotas have no Tech bulletins and
NTSBs ?



I saw it in quality-related publications on
http://www.subaru-isuzu.com, Lafayette's plant site,
they were very proud of this fact.
Today, I cannot find the docs, unfortunately, for
understandable reasons.



come on, I even do not want to check it - I saw it all the
way around in charts. Once, in recent years, I saw the
Outback awarded as the most reliable vehicle of North
America (it shared the first place with Lexus LS400).
I do not believe that they made U-turn just in 2 years.



This is no conspiracy. This is about money and about
marketing. Surveys are tring to make good relations with
strong manufacturers, with strong marketing (aka bribing+ads)
policy. Isuzu is so weak in this department that
I wonder how they manage to sell even 30,000 vehicles.



YMNFJHDT

Read what I originally wrote about what Toyota does with their NTSBs.

Check out websites such as:
Reliability Info

Everyone seems to act like everybody just makes up these statistics - maybe consumer reports boosts brands they like - who knows, but tell me why Isuzu rates lower than the other Japanese manufactuerers in every survey?

Personally when we bought my Isuzu we bought it because we mistakenly equated Japanese with absolute quality- which we should have never done. There is no one that can statistically prove that Isuzu is on par with Toyota/Honda/Nissan.

Everybody can bring up their own personal experiences with these makes, but its statistics that count because each car is subject to completely different factors.


BTW I called the shop today.
The head mechanic was absouletly fuming. They got the fuel pump in yesterday ($285!!!!) and installed it. They cranked it up and it ran fine and they drove it around for about 15 minutes then brought it back to the shop. While it was idling and they were looking for my phone number to call me and pick it up - it stalled out. They were unable to get it restarted so they hooked up the brand new fuel pump to whatever test equipment they use and it was completely dead. So they called up the Isuzu parts place that sold it to them and had to fight with them on the phone for an hour before they decided they would let them exchange it. But they still have to redrop the tank to put the new fuel pump in - now my cost is going to be in excess of $450. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If I were you I wouldnt buy a 4runner unless you are getting a 22re old school boy. Up until 97 they have worse engine problems than any isuzu engine ever did, and I have never seen a 4 runner that wasnt saggy bottomed a bit. (excepting highly modified ones)

If we wanted to start a Rag on other car contest it would be far too easy to rag on the other cars you might be willing to buy. Ie. 4runners, Jeeps (man alive, have you even looked at a jeep forum for the oodles and oodles of problems with these vehicles??)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SILVER BULLET. There is no car that is bullet proof.

Problems suck but the amount you have experienced sounds exactly like what you should expect. If you don't want your ZU, I and oodles of people on this board do because we recognize that problems have to happen. I would care to bet that the average Isuzu owner locks their keys in the car more often than they have real problems with the car.

Sounds like your just getting through it, keep trucking man!

EXACTLY ! I have the same observations.



Jeeps are famous for their electric faults. I do not look
into charts, this is the real-world experience. They are
strong in the mechanical department, though.