I just read that thread from edstoy, seams the 22rte has a chronic headgasket-itis too. Hmmmmmm.......... Maybe we should not be force inducting either motor.

Frank.

Most engines are designed to make a lot of power, but are never designed to used that upper power except in very short infrequent bursts. Our Toyota truck engines, especially the 4 cylinders, are designed to make near maximum power all of the time. We scoff ot the relatively low h.p. and torque, but little do we realize that many of us are using a higher percentage of that h.p. and torque just to push our heavy trucks down the road. Do we forget that when we are loaded down like a full size truck, our engines are smaller than many compact car engines and they certainly make less "maximum" power.

Toyota designed the R series to be a truck motor from the beginning and to haul 1 ton loads down speeding freeways. That meant it would be used at high rpms and under extreme loads most of the time. So, the little 4 cylinder was designed to run at high rpms, making acceptable power, while still returning good fuel economy in the days of gas shortages. That's why a little 116hp motor can push my 5300lb truck down the road at 75 mph all day long, even with 190,000 miles and not even flinch. And I still get 17 to 18 mpg to boot! While it's pushing my truck, it's making a much higher percentage of it's maximum torque/h.p. than other larger motors in the same circumstances.

How many motors can you smash the gas pedle to the floor and bounce the rev meter only 1000 rpm shy of redline for literally hours at a time, and not only not have it blow up, but have it return a reasonable gas mileage and still keep on ticking for many, many more years to come. I know mine can.

The R series deserves nothing but respect that, despite being based on a design from the early 1970s, it can do that and still provide decades of reliable service and over 300,000 or 400,000 miles and still get better mileage than most other engines of the same time period.

I have no doubt the 3.0 V-6 is a good motor and since it's Toyota it deserves a lot respect, but it still has issues that cannot be overlooked. While I miss the power, I don't miss the complexity or expense of repair or simply never knowing when my headgaskets might fail once again.

Since Toyota was in no rush to design a new line in the R series, it had plenty of time to think about designing the 3RZ. And when it did, it had perhaps the best compact truck motor ever built. The 2.7 liter delivers the best of all worlds. The exact same power and torque as the 3.0 V-6, 22Re longevity and absolute reliability and better fuel economy than both of the older motors. It's an unsung hero, because we only see it in a few base Tacomas, but it's really the ultimate Toyota compact truck engine and there's a reason why, other than the 22R/22RE series, it's one of the few motors here in the U.S. that Toyota also uses in it's very abused overseas Hilux. That's right. The 3.0 V-6 was not commonly used overseas at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Brian894X4:
<strong>
How many motors can you smash the gas pedle to the floor and bounce the rev meter only 1000 rpm shy of redline for literally hours at a time, and not only not have it blow up, but have it return a reasonable gas mileage and still keep on ticking for many, many more years to come. I know mine can.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I think that the point Frank is trying to make is that his motor doesn't HAVE to sit near redline just to keep the truck up to speed. I'm not really sure that is a great selling point Brian, sure they are strong but if I am redlining my motor I would hope that the truck is accelerating, not just maintaining road speed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by DirtyHarry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Brian894X4:
<strong>
How many motors can you smash the gas pedle to the floor and bounce the rev meter only 1000 rpm shy of redline for literally hours at a time, and not only not have it blow up, but have it return a reasonable gas mileage and still keep on ticking for many, many more years to come. I know mine can.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I think that the point Frank is trying to make is that his motor doesn't HAVE to sit near redline just to keep the truck up to speed. I'm not really sure that is a great selling point Brian, sure they are strong but if I am redlining my motor I would hope that the truck is accelerating, not just maintaining road speed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">The engine are designed to handle being able carry heavy loads at high rpms down the road and still provide good gas mileage and last forever.
They remind me of the light aircraft engines. The light aircraft engines don't make a ton of power of maximum power compared to thier displacement, but are designed to run at 70% power all day long, whereas most car and truck engines are designed only run maybe 20% maximum power all day long.

What's the point of having a big heavy motor that has a lot of maximum power, if at the same time it's going to eat fuel and wear itself out faster than a smaller, lighter motor that's built to run full duty for longer periods of time?

So, since most of us drive empty trucks, we are putting less stress on the motor than it was originally overdesigned for and therefore, most of us can get many many thousands of miles.

Does this mean the 22RE is better than the 3.0 V-6. Well, that wasn't really my point. I think the 3.0 V-6 was designed with the same high rpm high load use as the 22RE, and the fact that the same block can easily support twice the power in the 3.4 liter versions, it's clear it was a tough design. Toyota just screwed something up in the headgasket area. But the 22RE does tromp the 3.0 V-6 in gas mileage, even under high rpm, heavy load use.

I was more comparing to the non-Toyota engines out there like the Fords and Chevys. Those engines run at lower rpms and far less than their maximum power most of the time, yet only last half as long as the Toyotas. Just proves Toyota designed a great motor.

Harry is absolutely right. I don't have to rev my motor, I just drive. When I do have to rev my motor like that, you 4 bangers are struggling in 2nd gear, I can still go 55+ at least.

Brian, there are some things you just can't get around.

First of all. A "truck" motor by definition is one that makes torque at low RPM. A "car" motor usually does so at high RPM. That being said, I don't think the 22R's are very high reving 4 cylinder motors. In fact, I think they tend to have more bottom end torque than most 4 cylinders. Aren't their redlines under 6 grand?

Now, that said, friction is friction. Your rings for example, slide against the cylinder walls when the truck runs. Your wristpins must bear the loads of each engine cycle and so on... All of this helps to generate heat. If you have to rev the piss out of your motor, it will endure more friction for every mile of use and will wear accordingly. This applies to every moving part in your motor as well as static parts ike head gaskets that see the load each time your cylinder fires. You 4 cylinder is at a dissadvantage there, a big one.

HP is the rate of work. To make high horsepower, you have to produce torque and a high RPM. The way this translates into a fast vehicle is because that engine torque is multiplied by gear ratios: ie, you use a lower gear with a high reving motor you get lots of torque at the wheel. You can easily double torque at the wheel with the change of a gear... as long as the engine can take the strain. The problem comes in when you are at a freeway speed, up a hill, you can't downshift low enough to get the torque you need at the wheels to get the truck to go at the speed you want. This is where HP goes out the window and it's all about torque period. You either have the torque to twist the wheels or you don't. This is where large engines have their strength as they see less friction due to lower rpm, less heat generated(a biggie for aluminum headed motors), less wear, and last longer. The owners get to relax in the fast lane too!

I really don't see how the Toyota 22R is supposed to rev like that all day. I mean my girlfriends Vtech Civic with its near 7 grand RPM redline? That's a motor to rev.

Here's an interesting tid bit of an example of HP Vs torque.

My 83 Mercedes 300SD is a 4000lb 4 door turbo diesel sedan. It has 243,000 miles on it and isn't anywhere near the end of its life. My girlfriend has a little Honda as I mentioned with the VTEC motor. Of the line she kicks my butt off the planet. On the freeway things are a little different. If we both take off at 70 and neither downshifts, my benz will not only smoke her, but it go faster too. If she kicks down to third, she starts to slowly over take me. But.. I start to run out of steam around 95 or so... where she hits 4th gear and while she won't accelerate really quick, she'll hit 130 with some pedal left. I'm a distant glint in here rear view. (Had I a 5th gear things might be different.) As you can see, in top gear, torque wins. If your top gear can't go fast enough, and that top gear is the fastest gear your engine can take, you are SOL and wearing out your engine quick.

Frank.

PS, on these boards, 4 cylinders are lucky to hit 150K before major work when pulling big tires, etc... I have never, ever seen a signature or claim of a 4 cylinder engine surving over 300,000 miles (let alone 400,000) in a 4 wheel drive lifted big tire truck. I'll lay a fat bet that you will see a 3.0 v6 do it say late next year assuming I continue to drive at the mileage I am. Sure mine had work.. but it was FREE!. The few 4 bangers I have seen claim to pull more than 200,000 with out major work were described as tired. Criminy, 3.0 tired at 200K? I don't think so.

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: elripster ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by elripster:
<strong>Harry is absolutely right. <snip></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">You should have just stopped right here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I agree that the 3.0L gets a bad wrap, but I don't think that you see ANYONE claiming huge mileage numbers with lifted trucks with big tires, regardless of the motor. Most of them are not daily drivers, but when they do get used they get used hard.

Another thing that has not been mentioned outside of displacement is the ratio of stroke to bore. As a general rule, longer strokes produce more torque but do not rev as high. The 22RE is slightly oversquare, with a stroke of 89 mm and a bore of 92 mm. The 3VZE is undersquare, with a stroke of 90 and a bore of 87.5.

I won't disagree that the 3.0 V-6 is a great motor (how many times have I said that now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) But I will definately disagree that the 22R/22RE has more problems and is less reliable or will not last as long, even under extreme loads.

My truck's original 22RE engine has almost 200,000 miles. Only repair is a timing chain. My head and oil pans have never been removed since it was built in 1988. It spent the first 150,000 miles hauling around a full sized camper and the original owner barely maintained it at best. It's even been on a year long trip to Alaska with that camper.

The last 50,000 miles since I've owned it, it has had taller tires, lower gears and has carried just as excessive loads as the old camper it had. On a recent 2000 mile round trip to Montana and back, I would average 4000 to 4500 rpm on the clock and my gas pedle was almost always mashed to the floor, trying to keep up with my Dad's empty stock Tacoma. So, ya, it was slow, but that little motor would keep on going near full power for hours on end without so much as a wimper.

It doesn't smoke, it burns maybe about a quart of synthetic oil every 3000 miles and compression is about 185 on all four cylinders.

And the bottom line is...I didn't ever have to replace my headgasket and as long as I don't overheat, I don't have to worry about it in the future either.

Oh, and while I might weigh around 5000lbs, and I might not be as fast as most other vehicles out there, I still get 18+ mpg and even better if I slow it down. Doesn't that about equal an "empty" 3.0 V-6 truck?

I can't win on the power, but when it comes to simplicity, fuel economy, maintainance economy and reliability, I believe the R series had the edge.

In the end ALL Toyota motors have the edge, which is what really counts.

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Brian894X4 ]</small>

WOW hot topic eh .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Brian894X4:
<strong>I won't disagree that the 3.0 V-6 is a great motor (how many times have I said that now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) But I will definately disagree that the 22R/22RE has more problems and is less reliable or will not last as long, even under extreme loads.

My truck's original 22RE engine has almost 200,000 miles. Only repair is a timing chain. My head and oil pans have never been removed since it was built in 1988. It spent the first 150,000 miles hauling around a full sized camper and the original owner barely maintained it at best. It's even been on a year long trip to Alaska with that camper.

The last 50,000 miles since I've owned it, it has had taller tires, lower gears and has carried just as excessive loads as the old camper it had. On a recent 2000 mile round trip to Montana and back, I would average 4000 to 4500 rpm on the clock and my gas pedle was almost always mashed to the floor, trying to keep up with my Dad's empty stock Tacoma. So, ya, it was slow, but that little motor would keep on going near full power for hours on end without so much as a wimper.

It doesn't smoke, it burns maybe about a quart of synthetic oil every 3000 miles and compression is about 185 on all four cylinders.

And the bottom line is...I didn't ever have to replace my headgasket and as long as I don't overheat, I don't have to worry about it in the future either.

Oh, and while I might weigh around 5000lbs, and I might not be as fast as most other vehicles out there, I still get 18+ mpg and even better if I slow it down. Doesn't that about equal an "empty" 3.0 V-6 truck?

I can't win on the power, but when it comes to simplicity, fuel economy, maintainance economy and reliability, I believe the R series had the edge.

In the end ALL Toyota motors have the edge, which is what really counts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">What he said. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Couldn't have put it better myself. Lets just agree that both engines are great and have their own advantages and disadvantages.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by DirtyHarry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by elripster:
<strong>Harry is absolutely right. <snip></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">You should have just stopped right here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I agree that the 3.0L gets a bad wrap, but I don't think that you see ANYONE claiming huge mileage numbers with lifted trucks with big tires, regardless of the motor. Most of them are not daily drivers, but when they do get used they get used hard.

Another thing that has not been mentioned outside of displacement is the ratio of stroke to bore. As a general rule, longer strokes produce more torque but do not rev as high. The 22RE is slightly oversquare, with a stroke of 89 mm and a bore of 92 mm. The 3VZE is undersquare, with a stroke of 90 and a bore of 87.5.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Aw come on now, you know I could just stop there!

I'm making huge mileage numbers with a daily driven trail rig. Which is Ok because on Tuesday my bike went into the shop with electrical problems and my car, which I'm trying to sell, had AC issues. I have the car back but the bike is still in. The truck is always there though. I love my truck.

By the numbers, the 3.0 would be the better truck motor as it will produce more torque. It does not rev very high so I could see how these numbers work in.

Funny obsersvation. But is it really so good that one has to wrench on their engine so often that they really worry about simplicity? That doesn't sound like a reliable engine to me. I mean if I have to work on my truck big time it will be so few and far between it just isn't really an issue. The day to day convenience overwhelmes the inconvenience of repair work.

I have had my pedal mashed to the floor for hours too climbing tall mountains under full load with over geared drive train. I didn't have to worry about over heating even with the AC on. It just flat out would not get more than a little over half way up no matter how hard I flogged it. I actually tried just to see what she'd take and she came through fine.

Well you guys have fun wrenching on your simple engines. I'm going to drive my 274,000 mile 3.0 in the fast lane with the AC on up hills with people in it. Tell me how the repair work goes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That said I think I'm due for an oil change.......

Frank.