Good luck finding the oil filter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans"> PS, on these boards, 4 cylinders are lucky to hit 150K before major work when pulling big tires, etc... I have never, ever seen a signature or claim of a 4 cylinder engine surving over 300,000 miles (let alone 400,000) in a 4 wheel drive lifted big tire truck. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I believe you just hit on the real determining factor here. "...in a 4 wheel drive lifted big tire truck..." Keep in mind that none of these engines, hell, these trucks, were designed with the idea of people running them with huge tires and stock gears (either because they can't afford to, or just don't want to re-gear), or even in any application besides stock at all. While it may have crossed the engineer's minds, it was by no means the sole determining factor in the designs of the engines. While all three engines being discussed here are excellent engines, I think this is where the 22R might edge out the other two just slightly in terms of reliability.

I think no one here will disagree that in off road useage, it is very common to thrash the hell out of your truck and it's motor. Either by running huge tires with less than ideal gearing on the highway to get where you are going, or by using insanely low gearing to take it places most people would call you insane to even think of, you are putting stresses on it that it was never designed for. Now then I ask you this: which motor has held up better to this kind of abuse? I have been reading and posting to this board for a year or two now, and have been interested in yotas for far longer, and it seems to me that the 22R has been the engine that has held up the best. Among my friends we have a saying: "Toyotas last forever if you take care of them; half of that if you don't."

Another way to look at it:
Take a look at the reliability and longevity of the engines that have been kept in stock applications. That's where I suspect you will find the engines with 300,000+ miles with no rebuild. And I suspect a lot of that has to do with simple math. The 22R has fewer parts - less stuff to break and go wrong. I'm not saying the 3VZE and 5VZFE are bad, far from it. They are very reliable, the 22R is just more so.

As for power, well, there is just no contest there. The 3.4 kicks both other engine's asses combined with two dead cyls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I'm not trying to re-start the "which engine is better" debate, just pointing out that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. When looking at reliability, the 4 banger comes out slightly ahead of the sixes. Just as the sixes beat the 4 like a drum when it comes to power.

Bottom line: they are all Toyota, they will all last forever if you take care of them, half of that if you dont <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

P.S. I second the motion that the 4 is nicer to work on!

How do you get the feeling the 22's are best fo the task? I browse these boards an there is post after post of these things having problem after problem. They have less torque, something trucks need badly. I don't know, to each their own but just doesn't make sense to me to promote a motor that blows up at 150K, is grosly underpowered, but at least is easy to fix. Which is good becauce clearly fix it you will. I mean this guy, Edstoy, is looking to take the RTE out of his truck because it has so many problems. And people even bother to question whether 3.0 can take it as opposed to a 4 banger????? (getting back to the original post) I just don't get it.

This is the 4wheeling off roading board. You don't find 300,000 mile 22 anythings on here that have haven't been warmed over twice or more. If you go to ORC, or Pirate, no difference. But, I'm done for now. Much if this stuff is personal preference and often it's easier to try to get more out of you hamsters than put in bigger stronger hamsters. Maybe some of thise info will paint a good picture to anyone who's not sure which to choose.

Frank.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by elripster:
<strong>The few 4 bangers I have seen claim to pull more than 200,000 with out major work were described as tired.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Mine has about 195,000 miles, never been opened up, and pulls like new. This is with 33's, stock gearing, and original clutch. I will be "freshening up" the engine, but this really only consists of a new timing chain w/metal guide (1st replacement), oil pump, water pump, thermostat, starter contacts, battery cables, and possibly RV cam. The only thing that needs replacing out of these it the Timing Chain, and none of this constitutes "major work."

Yes, my half moons piss everywhere (new gaskets during the freshning), and no, I don't tear up the street. What I can do, however, is start it up, drive it, and perform basic preventative maintenance to keep it purrrfect. I also have enough torque on tap to pull very large trailers, auto transports, and boats.

The best thing for your headgaskets in either engine is to DRAIN AND FLUSH YOUR COOLING SYSTEM ANNUALLY! Most people do this very few years, but I used to be a chevy guy [flame suit on]. I know first hand about radiator, water pump, and heater core failures.

BTW... The only repairs my runner's 22-RE has seen have been 2 alternators (drowned 'em), water pump (made a small noise), and a cracked radiator (my fault, and another story entirely). Oh, yeah... The battery was replaced in 1991, and again in 2002. I don't count thermostat, belt and hose replacements (annually). These are basic maintenance items. So are tuneups (every 20,000 miles). <img border="0" alt="[Nerd]" title="" src="graemlins/nerd.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by elripster:
<strong>How do you get the feeling the 22's are best fo the task? I browse these boards an there is post after post of these things having problem after problem. They have less torque, something trucks need badly. I don't know, to each their own but just doesn't make sense to me to promote a motor that blows up at 150K, is grosly underpowered, but at least is easy to fix. Which is good becauce clearly fix it you will. I mean this guy, Edstoy, is looking to take the RTE out of his truck because it has so many problems. And people even bother to question whether 3.0 can take it as opposed to a 4 banger????? (getting back to the original post) I just don't get it.

This is the 4wheeling off roading board. You don't find 300,000 mile 22 anythings on here that have haven't been warmed over twice or more. If you go to ORC, or Pirate, no difference. But, I'm done for now. Much if this stuff is personal preference and often it's easier to try to get more out of you hamsters than put in bigger stronger hamsters. Maybe some of thise info will paint a good picture to anyone who's not sure which to choose.

Frank.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">I was going to let the argument die, but now I gotta say something... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The 22R/22RE does NOT regularly blow up at 150K miles for crying out loud. The vast majority of 22R/22RE owners out there now have over 150K miles and that's without major repairs and certainly not a rebuilt.

As with even the best motors, there are going to be some that get blown up due to major owner neglect or abuse. But with moderate maintainence and reasonable driving, the 22R/22RE will easily reach 300K to 400K miles without any major repair, except the timing chain.

The timing chain was not a defective part like the headgasket issue with the 3.0 V-6, because it doesn't fail right out of the box. It rather is a poorly designed system that doesn't last the life of the engine, due to plastic timing guides being added along with a single chain, instead of the dual chain/metal guide older design. But a worn timing chain usually gives you many thousands of miles of notice and once repaired, you are good to go. The only reason this is even an issue on the Toyota motors, is because they last so darn many miles. Most other manufacture's motors would have died at about the same time the chain wore out.

You keep referring back to the fact that you see all these problems and repairs needed on the 22R/22RE. What part of the fact that there are far more of these engines out there than 3.0 V-6s do you not get? Toyota only built the 3.0 V-6 for 7 years while the 20R/22R/22RE/22RT-E have been around for 17 years here in the U.S. and over 19 years overseas. Even during those 7 years of 3.0 V-6 production, over half of the motors sold were still 22REs. Obviously, with more R series engines out there, there are going to be a greater number of problems or people with questions. Is someone from the Chevy or Ford board suppose to come over to our board and come to the conclusion that all Toyotas must suck because we are always having repair problems or questions. Of course not!

In regards to the turbo 22RT-E, I don't know much about them, but Toyota probably rushed that design to production just like they did the 3.0 V-6. Remember the RTE was suppose to be the interum before the V-6 came out. The turbo Toyota selected apparently sucks, and to keep a turbo healthy, you have to idle down for at least a few minutes before shutting off the engine, something very, very few owners do on a regular basis. So, ya, I can see why people might have problems with them.

As for being underpowered, this is true. I can't out accelerate a Corvette. But even approaching maximum gross weight, I can still travel down the highway at legal speeds and I can accelerate onto a freeway onramp. That's all that matters. If I want to be speed racer, I'd go buy a sport's car. If I have to keep it in the slow lane going up hills, that's just the price I pay. There is nothing wrong with having a slow lifted truck with tall tires. At least I have a lesser chance of getting myself killed in my high center of gravity, poor handling truck, since it is slower. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As for off road, I've never run into a situation, where engine power was needed that gears didn't make all the difference in the world, except one...sand. But I don't run in sand, very often, so I don't really care.

And finally, ask yourself this one question. Why do we almost never see anyone transplanting a 3.0 V-6 in place of the 22RE? Wouldn't it nearly be a direct bolt in, including wiring harness, except transmission? It's because noone wants to go to the hassel only find they once again blew a headgasket. Also, the marginal power increase is not worth the the signficant decrease in fuel mileage.

Now, a 3RZ, that would be a great motor swap. Equal power and torque to the 3.0, but much better mileage and better reliability.

There is one advantage to having a 3.0 V-6. When it finally dies from headgasket failure, you'll have a much easier time swapping in the 3.4 V-6 than I would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Brian894X4 ]</small>

Yeah, the 22R/22RE engine is a real beast... think about it, I HAVE over 200K and about 150K of that is with 31.5' tires. Ok not BIG but enough to make a difference. I change my oil regularly (every 3K) and the filter with it, I religiously clean my air filter, check belts, preussures etc. and I only put in Chevron or 76 gas. Still, you can't dismiss the HP and Torque issue. Ok for rock crawling it really doesn't matter, you get dual or even triple transfers and 5.29 gearing front and back and you can idle over anything without stepping on the gas. Even with tyour 40 inch swampers.
The problem is on the highway, or going up hill, or on dirt roads where SPEED counts.
Even with lil bitty rice-burner eggbeater tires (20 inch) you still just don't have the umph. Hell there are street motorcycles with 2x the HP and the torque.

The low end torque vs. high end torque question all over again... Agains this all depends on gearing, how long your throttle valves are open, forced induction and a million other things. if you really want low rpm and high torque, get a diesel. In gas engines the only way you can get real power at low RPM's is by lettign your gas mileage go to hell with enormous displacement. (5.0 liter range)(forced induction really only works at higher rpms)

Im my opinion, one of the best engines ever made my toyota is the 1JZ engine (never sold in the US). The thing redlines around 8 or 9K, has 280 HP at 6500rpm. And still gets 27MPG+ pushing around the heavy MKIII supra. The engine is solid and not known for any sort of mechnical issues. The thing packs a whallop for being a dimunitive 2.5 liter engine. The turbos on the 1JZ are rock solid and not known for breaking since they engage linearly with engine RPM and don't suffer from the knocking of the later model supra.

As far as it being used for a "truck" engine. Ok low end torque, due to the simultaneous engagement of the turbos at low RPM the 1JZ offers much more baseline torque then either the 3.4, 3.0 or 2.7 liter engines. Since as you put more strain on the engine the turbo spools accordingly. though it peaks in torque around 5-6 KRPMS. It really gets its groove on though in its mid rpm range which is great for accelerating in traffic etc. The larger displacement "truck" engines ussually have very bad performance in this range since they are really geared towards "grunt" torque. Ie, my dads cummins turbo diesel, accelerates great at the low end, but tapers off immediately. If I down shift and punch it, the only thing that happnes is me slowing down! It doesn't have much high end power at all! With the 1JZ or other similar engines (honda Vtec etc) the opposite is true, down shift and insta acceleration!

We tend to think strictly gear ratios and tire size, but you need to take into account torque vs rpms, hp vs rpms, and what gear box is sed with what engine etc. For rock crawling it is hard to beat the 22RE, nothing is as bullet proof and has the linear power response of the beast.
On the highway with nothing in tow, you may want something like the 1JZ-GTE.
On the road with a big load (don't do it in your toyota anyway, not heavy enough)A diesel would eb abetter choice. But don't expect acceleration, just expect to hold a steady grunt.
If you need both then your only real option is to throw away your gas dollars and get a monster sized engine with real displacement, boost is great, but wont help you through all rpms.

Jay

I really don't have much of anything new to add, but felt the need to voice my opinion on the 22re. My old truck was a 92 with 197k on it when it was totalled by a 17 year old with no insurance. Ran like a champ, no leaks, no problems. My current ride is also a 92-the head was off at 110k due to a tiny pinch of smoke at start up. Anyone that knows me knows I can't handle a POS for a vehicle. Replaced the valve guide seals and stuffed a TRD cam in there and did the timing chain. Now I'm over 200k and never had a mechanical problem. It turns 33s, lift, locker, 4.88s and regularly returns 19 to 20mpg. I easily expect ANOTHER 200k out of it. I personaly know of 22res exceeding 350k with no motor troubles. 150k and ready to blow up? Sure, just don't run any oil in it.

Yeah that 22r... the greatest engine everyone seems to want to remove from their truck entirely... and replace with terrible engines like Chevy 4.3's.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Like I said, call me when you guys with 33's have 300,000 on 'em. I have to go and drive up more hills on the freeway at 80 with people and Ac etc.... no more time to post he he he....

Frank.

Hey now, don't use that kind of language on the board... If I ever swap my motor, it would certainly be for a super charged Toyota 3.4. No question. Toyota has been way too good to me.

I'll also be the first to admit that my 22re doesn't have enough power to get out of it's own way. I'm downright scared to get on the freeway sometimes and wonder if I should cut holes in the floorboard so I can 'Fred Flinstone' my way up to speed. But it just keeps going...

If I can avoid getting t-boned by some halfwit yakking away on the cell phone, you bet I'll have way more than 300k on it.

Jason

22REs don't have to be slow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img src="http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/toystaff/harry/Exhaust2.jpg" alt=" - " />