Chris-

You need to stick with diagnosing fuel leaks with a cigarette in your mouth. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just keep that life jacket close by.

An alternator only produces as much as the load placed upon it. Given it is within the capacity of the alternator. Remember there is a regulator in there somewhere? Well, that keeps it to 12 volts, the rest has to do with resistance within the magnetic field induced within the alt.

I am sure that www.howstuffworks.com has a better and more indepth explantion. Or, sign up for your own electronics class, as you just asked a question that involves a lot of electrical theory. Or, I can just tell you "Becasue." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Michael

Yes... you mean my alternator does not use cold fusion? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

shoot, I just realized also that I forgot to check my blinker fluid this morning too! lucky me, I could've gotten a ticket for that <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />



I'll try to be more specific from now on... no need to kick the dead horse... I'll just sit here quietly in my corner feverishly biting my tongue from now on <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Yup.
This is why you set idle speed and timing with the a/c, headlights, etc. turned off. On my 88, I have to act quickly and work between cycles of the electric fan...the rpm will drop by about 50 when it's on at idle.

[edit]

Sorry for kicking the proverbial dead horse again, Peter...I replied before realizing there was another page of posts. I reserve the right to pull a stupid newbie maneuver from time to time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey, what engine can I swap...

Alternator does for sure take hp. In high school, they had an alternator hooked up to a light bulb, with the alternator being driven by a bicycle. start petaling and turn on the switch, it gets harder, turn it off, nice and easy. But... it wasnt that hard, i could easily keep that light lit and bright.

what i want to know is if the gains are better than the lose. IF i put my hand over the throttle body, the engine will die. I could feel how much it sucks (or whatever you want to call it) now if i open up the throttle body more, it obviosly needs more air. So, if the fan can push air in more than the engine needs at full throttle, wouldnt that somewhat compress it? it doesnt matter if its 1 psi or .0000000000000000001 psi, doesnt it do something?

now another thing that wouldnt be good about this product is that it doesnt spin with the engine speed. So, it does have its flaws. I wouldnt buy it unless it could make 20+ hp.(which i know it cant)

so if it was a leaf blower that blew 130 + mph wind, then would it do somthing? more air equals more O2, wichi the MAF senses, equals more gas. Is this wrong?

lol this thread got hit fast

kevan

Actually, that motor has only been run twice...in a 220 inch RED..staying in low, to get lauchdown(not even gonna touch that, but you know what I mean), the second time, to make a long story short, there was a porblem and the tranny jumped, luanchingt the car...in reverse(neevr figured out what happened, I think bent linkage, but), so the motor sits on a stand under the CCTVs for the shop... fro another few weeks...

No comp..just a few toys...mostly test and tune sessionsas I cant havea schedule to compete, but we run Qwuick 8 adn stuff fro hahas..

Hopefully soon.... And yeah, I do the blowers with the exception of the afforementioed items, stripping and nytral..

Anyway, I think we should chill with this post..

my emailis listed...I have a few questions for ya, as I am not used to going THAT quick <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />.. adn a few laughs as well..

Chase

Yeah, I know about the regulator and all -- don't worry, I was smoking while I was typing. But I guess what I'm getting at is, you mentioned "resistance" but you're talking "electrical resistance" not physical mechanical resistance... So how does the engine actually work any harder by drawing more amps to the battery? Like I said, it seems that the alternator itself will spin at whatever speed the RPM's tell it to, and it won't get any harder to spin just cause you're drawing more power. Again, I may be getting myself into an electrical theory conversation where I can't hang, but all I'm trying to do is clarify. How exactly does the regulator cause there to be more MECHANICAL resistance on the spinning alternator? Do you follow what I'm trying to ask? Basically what I'm saying is this...

The alternator spins at X RPM's given Y Engine RPM's.
The regulator "regulates" the energy being produced to a static 12-volts (well, being specific, usually something more like 13.7 volts). This is a constraint on the output itself, not a constraint on the power it's actually producing. (or is it?) It just simply limits the power that actually gets passed on to the battery.
The battery puts out power in exactly the amount being asked for -- we'll call it Z here.

Now, with that in mind, let's say we increase the amount of power required -- Z. That will not automatically increase X or Y, as they are independent of Z. Yes, the regulator will bump the output of the alternator electrically, but it will still be spinning at the same RPM "X", no? Basically what I'm getting at is, what MECHANICAL issues will cause a HP loss? I'm still not really following.

Keep in mind that all of this is just cause I love the debate -- I will gladly debate the wrong side of an issue if it will spark a greater debate on the subject. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> In the long run, I'm positive that regardless of anything else, the HP loss from an alternator will be completely unnoticeable in anything but a racecar or a dyno, and I'm sure that any gains/losses from this "Tornado wannabee" would be completely unnoticeable as well. I sure did turn this post into something different than it started out as, didn't I?

Oh, and by the way, howstuffworks.com, while a great site in and of itself, mentions the word alternator countless times but never tells you how it works. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

[/b]

Yeah, but I think we can all (even those of us like me that prefer to disagree for the fun of it) that the alternator will have some mechanical draw on the engine. But that doesn't really answer my part of the question.... Yours is an on/off situation. I'm talking about more electrical current vs. less electrical current. In a basic form of the question, would the alternator require more work to turn it if there were two lightbulbs vs. one?

-Chris

Ok, putting all your X Y's and Z's out of the picture.

It's a fact that it takes power to turn an alternator to convert mechanic power to electrical power. The more power you draw from the alternator, the more power it takes from the motor to be able to convert that power. It's simple physics. You can't get more out of what you put in.
If you wish not to accept physics and how things work, then I nor anyone else can help you.

Yes, the more light bulbs you add to the circuit, the more power will be drawn from the engine, up to the point of the alternators max output.

Read the link I posted earlier. It was not from the "how stuff works" website. I wouldn't believe everything that the "how stuff works" website says anyways, because I have found several things that are incorrect. They explain how things work for the general person to understand in a general way. They do a pretty good job at explaining most of the stuff in layman's terms, but they are not always correct in their anaylogies.

how an alternator works? well two magnets passing by each other really fast with little space between them, make electricity. How it puts it to the wires and causes resistance is beyond me (didnt pay much attention in school)

kevan

how an alternator works? well two magnets passing by each other really fast with little space between them, make electricity.

You find me the magnets in your alternator and I'll mail you a cookie. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chris-

You are close, but not quite. Electricity is "used" only at the rate needed. That means the alternator only produces exactly what it sees as resistance (resistance=usage) from accessories. It may produce 135A, but unless there is a 135A load on it it does not produce that. If it did, our trucks would burn up every time we started them (no, Chris, that is not normal). It is also what the "Tester" at the parts store does to your alternator. There is a huge carbon pile in that thing that applies a load to the alternator to test its output. This is also why you can use the same outlet to run your welder and then run a light bulb. The welder sucks down 50 amps, the light bulb is sucking down something like 0.5amp. So, hooking up two light bulbs to an alternator will require more amperage and it will require the alternator to work harder to produce that. Keep adding light bulbs and then you would not be able to pedal the bike.

Where does the resistance come from? It is mechanical and it is actually electro-mechanical. When the field on the alternator is charged (the outside part) it creates an magnetic field. Actually, it creates several. That is why I was making fun of Kevin a bit and that is why the old generators in cars were HUGE. They had magnets.

When the poles on the armature spin (the spinny thing in the middle), they cut through the fields. This flux through the magnetic field creates an alternating current. That AC current is then run through a rectifying bridge (the thing on or in the back of the alternator) to create DC current, which feeds the vehicle. That is how it all works. The regulator keeps regulated to the 12v (for ease, we'll use 12, but it is 13.7 because of the number and spacing of the field and armature poles, but that is for another discussion, on another day). Pull the regulator and you get unlimited (well...unregulated) voltage or a voltage increase with RPM. I.e. on board welder. The regulator keeps it producing 12 volts at all RPM levels.

Now, load. Well, we are sorta beating the dead horse without seeing any actual numbers. How much loss? I don't know. But we are talking about taking engine power and transferring it through a belt, to some bearings, converting it into AC, then into DC and shoving it through some wires. I would almost guess that you might suck down between 5-10 HP at peak alt output. There are a lot of variables that need to be considered.

Back to the blower. CPOM, you are forgetting the blow vs. compression idea. Yes, your leaf blower can blow at 130mph, but you can put your hand over the end and stop it. Good flow, bad compression. Same thing in your engine. The air has to be physically compressed and you can't do that in the intake. It just cannot happen.

Second, look at the fan, how much internal diameter is taken up by it. All that stuff is in the way of flow. I don't know, nor do I care what the flow rating is on the fan, but consider this. On each cycle of the a 3.2 engine, it sucks in 1.6L of air. At 3000RPM, you need 4800 CFM to just feed the engine. Yeah, there are some volumetric inefficiencies, but...you get the idea. For that fan to work, it first off has to flow more than 4800 CFM just to let the engine run. Then, ignoring the inability to compress air, it has to provide enough extra flow to actually push more into the engine. Again, impossible because of how things work.

This thing is bunk. We have discussed it before. There is no new, secret twist that will make it work, or something out there that nobody has thought of. Even the leaf blower will not work. How much HP or amp draw does one of those have? 5 amps, let say. That is 600 watts of power at 120V. To provide that same amount you would need 50 amps at 12V. Of course, the blower would not work on DC current, but you get the idea. Then you still have the issue of it not compressing air, just blowing it.

Good Luck and good discussion.
Michael