aren't nissan's axles overseas(at least ones made in the last 10-15 years) typically beefier than toyota's? i know in the US we got their H233B rear end which has a bigger ring gear than a ford 9" and has 32 or 32 spline shafts. i believe there's a matching front end in places like australia where they still sell "real" trucks.

however i don't think i can say the same for their engines and transmissions, i'd take toyota any day of the week in that category.

The 40th had 150K. Needed a steam cleaning, had two easy-fixe dents, leather was worn, needed maint (front axle, u-joints, etc) and exhuast.

The 96 I looked at needed the front seat fixed and parking break fixed - dealer was prepared to do so. Also needed exhaust (both had a whistle). 130K miles.

The 93 is still for sale in TX - BEAUTIFUL. Only has a semi-float rear w/ drums. Leather cracked. 150K miles.

The 93 that Shreg bought needs cosmetic stuff. Needs major tune up, full flush/fill, maint. 160K miles.

Prices vary region to region by a LOT. TX seems to be cheaper than SW. Midwest is cheaper than south.

For comparison - 96 4Runner SR5 w/ leather, 100K miles and in need of work (dealer) - 11K.

96-98 limiteds, 120K miles, leather needing minor work = 10-14K up here.

Well, I'm not knocking Chrysler for bringing us the Rubicon or the Powerwagon. Not at all. Both are interesting and neat rigs in their own right. And both appear to possibly be continuing and expanding a new and exciting trend in the auto industry.

But I would hardly call them "stout". Certainly not the Rubicon. Maybe the Powerwagon, just because of it's size and load capacity. The Rubicon is nothing more than a Jeep with the axles that it "should" come with standard to be equal to most Toyotas. The Dana 30 and 35s are a joke.

And neither of those rigs are anything that couldn't built with a couple of ARBs, and T-case gears. In the end, you still have a "Chrysler" and all of the inherent design deficiencies of a cheaply made and designed vehicle, IMHO.

The Rubicon still needs an expensive lift to be truly capable. I personally witnessed a nearly stock IFS 4Runner, with basically no lift, and 32s trounce all over a stock Rubicon because the Rubicon kept getting hung up on the rocks. A Powerwagon, as already mentioned, isn't going even be able to fit on many trails, much less make it through.

But I've always said, Kudos to them to bringing us those rigs and continuing a trend, which I believe was actually started by Toyota, and the first real electric lockers on an SUV (the Land Cruiser 80 series in 1993) and pick-up (the Tacoma in 1995). <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian why are you still on a DD search than? Get a Cruiser!

LOL... Believe me, I've looked at them. Three downfalls - Insurance on a '96 is more than my Taco. Mileage - four of these in my immediate circle of friends, the best gets 14mpg (avg over 17 in the taco). Finally - no cup-holders. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I brought my friend Paul to look at the 40th a few weeks ago - had it been in nicer shape, I likely would have bought it. Offered the dealer 7K (they were asking 11.5) - he wouldn't do it, but was more than willing to offer me a lot for my taco to make the deal. Just needed too much work.

I'm gonna stick with the taco for a while. Would love a Gen2 4Runner again, but have to be content w/ what I have...

Fill me in here, was the Bandeirante a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota, a Scion-like branding thing, or a third-party knockoff? You are saying they definitely do NOT have international contractual policies for clearances, performance, TQM/QA/ISO9000 compliance, etc.?

sadly though, the rubicon's "dana 44" front axle is nothing more than one of their typical dana 30s with a 44 center section.

If I recall correctly, the Bandeirante factory was partly owned by Toyota, not unlike NUMMI, but like NUMMI and the TAcoma, Toyota had 100% control over the design and production of the Bandeirante.

The Bandeirante was born out of Brazilian laws that prohibited manufactures from importing vehicles or parts into Brazil, which probably why the factory had to have some joint ownership with a Brazilian firm. They based the design off of the Land Cruiser 40 series, but after the initial kits that came from Japan in the early 1960s, all other models were entirely made in Brazilian with Brazilian made parts. But it was still a Toyota.

The quality issues were due to poor quality control in the parts and assembly. They didn't use Toyota designed. axles, engines or transmissions either. The few folks that have actually imported a Bandeirante up here to North America are quite disspointed, because they can't parts for even the basics like brakes or other misc stuff.

Production of the Bandeirante ended in 2001, because 10 years ealier, Brazil had relaxed it's laws about importing vehicles and it was extremely expensive compared other models flooding the country. The skins are a good match for the regular 40 series, so some American Land Cruiser restoration outfits have imported some of remaining Bandeirante body parts for use in restorations.

This is an extreme example, but similiar situation can be found in other place. South Africa has similier laws, although not as extreme and many South African Hiluxes used non-toyota designed axles and other parts to meet the domestic content laws. Speaking of SA, they were still producing the 1984 body style through 1997, because Toyota didn't want to retool the entire SA Toyota plant to produce the new 1989 model, since they couldn't import any parts.

Some South American Toyota plants still produce the Land Cruiser 80 series to this day, for example, because they aren't allowed to import the new 100 series and Toyota didn't want to spend the money to retool a small low production plant.

I'm sure today, Toyota has a basic standard of quality. Just like any manufacture has a "basic" standard. So does Ford, so does GM. But we don't just want a "basic" standard. We want the above and beyond that we are used too in our over built, over quality Toyota rigs of yesteryear.

Japan still has that to some degree. They take more pride in that country in their manufacture process because it's a part of their culture. It's something that we don't have here in this country to the same degree and probably even less so in other countries. On top of that, Toyota USA is under pressure to make money. It's not like the 1970s and 1980s, when Toyota was out to prove something. They are way beyond that. So, designers from Toyota USA are going to skimp in areas that they can afford to skimp to save money, such as going with cheaper and easier to build parts, like C-channel frames, non-Japanese radiators, alternators and batteries, for example. In the end, the overall design and quality is still good, but it's not overdesigned like older rigs and they make a lot more money on the rigs, while charging the same or higher prices.

Japanese rigs tend to still use Japanese OEM parts, which are higher quality. They are also still overdesigned to meet universal market needs in harsher environments in places like Africa, Australia and South America. This may not mean the retention of a solid front axle, but things like a heavier duty IFS suspension and diff, such as introduced in the 2003 4Runner come from Japan.

Obviously not all Japanese made rigs are built any better or designed any better than American built Toyotas. It depends on the use and intended markets. The RAV4, is not intended to be used out in the African desert, so it doesn't have to be over designed. But, I'll bet the quality is a little bit better.

Brian, you are starting to sound like Paul C... LOL


I'm excited to see it, I can't afford it tho... then again.. I gotta get a new car for the wife. The cressy isn't cutting it in the snow.

Josh

Brian if you could just give the compliment without kicking them afterward I wouldn't feel compelled to reply. Sometimes I think that you never go wheeling. Where I live, there are a lot of TJs on the trail and they are very capable and comfortable. In fact they are exactly what you are asking for from Toyota, a relatively inexpensive, no frills wheeler.



And a stronger transfer case. And lower gearing. And lockers front and rear. And rocker protection. Other than that, yeah it is nothing special. I don't like the dinky 5x4.5 bolt pattern and agree with you on the ground clearance, but if they made them any higher from the factory they would have Ralph Nader and Consumer Reports foaming at the mouth.

As for the axles, I'll give you the 35 but the Dana 30 is just as good as any axle that Toyota currently offers in this country, and with 30 spline ARBs, chromoly shafts, and heavy duty u-joints they can live with 37" tires in competition.