Depends on what you wanna do, I had tons of fun snow-drifting in mine <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> RWD+light back end = <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

I have tons of fun too. The wife doesn't understand the phrase, "drive it like you stole it!"


/hijack off

Oh, man! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Well, I don't think I'm that bad. For one thing I don't preach buying only Toyota dealer parts. Especially since the dealer OEM parts nothing more than repacked and higher priced parts that you can buy at your local store or from EB or Marlin or elsewhere. And I like EB and would buy from him in heartbeat. So, there are definately differences between us.

Harry,

The reason I give the domestics a lot of crap is from personal experience.

I've driven many different makes and styles of rigs over the years, including brand new rigs and I can see a major difference. Especially as they get older and rack up the miles. The two domestics and Chrysler are definately getting better in their quality, but there are still more problems in those rigs than some Japanese rigs. And I should make clear, it's not a Japanese verses American thing. Because some Japanese manufactures really suck too. I'm specificly talking about Toyota/Honda/Subaru. In my experience, in all the rigs I've driven and used, they are the highest quality vehicles. Just my opinion.

I do give credit where credit's due and I'm glad that Jeep is offering things like electric lockers, lower T-case gears, and diesel engines. I know that Jeeps are capable off road, especially when you dump a little money into them. I'm not primarily comparing off road capability. I'm comparing build and parts quality and also design quality.

Jeep obviously cares more about it's image in the off road world than Toyota does. I'm not going to argue against that by any means. The only reason Toyota even builds off road capable rigs overseas is to sell to commercial users and farmers. Jeep is specificly targeting the off road enthusiest, which is something that I think is a very good thing.

I'm hoping the FJ Cruiser is Toyota's response to that new market and not just another mini-SUV as some have suggested.

I know I said my main point wasn't comparing off road capability, but I had to post this. These are my pictures from a run early last year.

This rig, a completely stock 4Runner, no lift, and no lockers. It did have factory 4.88 gears and 32" tires. It got through this with no help: (Note it did get the gas tank hung up on a future obsticle, but it didn't stop it.)



The Rubicon had a lot more trouble, mostly due to clearance issues. I think he had to be winched, if I remember correctly. I know this doesn't prove anything, I just had to throw that in there. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't realize that 32" tall tires were a stock option.

You know I saw a stock 4Runner at Lowes the other day and I could not believe how low the stock gas tank and skidplate hang down. Not sure if they are as low as the TJs but there is a reason why Budbuilt, FROR, etc. all sell high clearance crossmembers.

Brian the next time I have the chance to drive a factory Rubicon I will try to invite you along. You can bring whatever factory Toyota you want (FJ-40, FJ-80, pickup, whatever) and we can play follow the leader...

I know that was a fluke. Remember the part where I said, this doesn't prove anything?

I know the Rubicon is a kick ars ride. Don't take my critisim of the Rubicon and Powerwagon so seriously. Besides, I was talking about mechnicals and reliability, not how many rocks it climb over or how deep a mud bog it can go through.

Obviously a stock Rubicon is better than nearly any other bone stock 4x4 in America. I think a fully locked Land Cruiser 80 series might beat it, though. And that's just because the 80 series has a longer wheelbase, is wider and comes with taller tires. Although if we're comparing bone stock, to bone stock, the Rubicon has the factory MTRs which count for a lot by themselves. Add a $1500 suspension lift, some taller tires and you'd have a basicly unstoppable off road machine....as long it was still running.

I disagree with Brian. The Rubicon, although still low slung (what factory vehicle isn't?) is a very capable rig for stock. Driver's ability is usually what makes the difference. I'd be willing to bet the guy driving that stock 4runner would do just as well, if not better, driving the Rubicon through the same obstacles.

I'm not sure why you have an issue with Chrysler vehicles. I guess when you don't own a Chevy or a Ford you have to do the Jeep vs Toyota BS. Fact is when modified they both have their advantages and their own place on the trail.

Stock for stock, I would take a new Rubicon before a new 4Runner.

As for the FJ, the supposed topic of this thread, there's much to be seen Wednesday. I don't think Toyota is going to give you what you want. I hope I'm wrong.

I think somewhere along the way, my argument about Toyota "quality" verses other manufactures quality was misinterpreted to mean that I think the Rubicon and Powerwagon are poor performers off road. I never disagreed that the Rubicon is a very capable vehicle, if not one of the best.



Because I have and do drive them for work. I've put many thousands of miles on domestic vehicles over the years, including brand new 2005 models. I'm speaking from experience. And I wasn't referring to trail capability.

You are quite right. I'm mainly talking about rigs that can be comfortable and practical on a daily level. And then wheeled pretty hard, but not hardcore. And again, all this is relative.

A rubicon definitely is a great out of the box wheeler, and has lots of potential. Even just agressive 33s and some armor an it could run tons of trails. But at least for me, they would be entirely too impractical.

you guys have to remember who jeep is marketing to. Middle America who think they have been "off-road" when they venture onto the dirt shoulder. over half the jeeps in my area don't see 4wheel drive unless it is snowing.
three of the people I know who bought TJ's, bought them because it was a "cool convertable". it is sad I know, but most people like mushy leather and power everything. on the other hand I enjoy basic comfy seats, air cond, and a nice radio. I don't need Heated seat for my tushy or fufu junk. I enjoy trucks for what they are Machinery. I just hope they don't "Dummer" this FJ up to sell it to the masses.
the wife and I were seriously looking at a Xterra to replace my runner, due to lack of air bags. but now I think we may wait to see what becomes of the FJ............Karl