Brian, I detect an assumption string. That is, you make a reasonable conjecture ("I'm sure today, Toyota has a basic standard of quality..."). I'm pretty sure of it too, though neither of us know first hand what that might be. Then you make another reasonable conjecture, "Just like any manufacture has a "basic" standard. So does Ford, so does GM." But in this conjecture is a semantic error you extend beyond reasonable: both must have "basic" standards, so both must define "basic" similarly. "Toyota basic" = "GM basic". This is the flaw. Then you reason on the basis of that flaw, "But we don't just want a "basic" standard. We want the above and beyond that we are used too in our over built, over quality Toyota rigs of yesteryear." Sure we do. But the implication is that we don't have it already.

No sale.

As far as that Yota going through the slop, well done, driver. My hunting buddy took a nearly stock YJ, not an offroad powerhouse, up Holy Cross trail to the top - including the French Creek crossing. No lockers. Minimal and basic lift, 33s. This is one of several Jeeps he has owned and he endorses them. He also likes his 96 4Runner, but his wife drives that.

You've not identified the variables that add up to "capable" and "reliable", and you are making unwarranted logical leaps and generalizations. I own domestic and Japanese Toyotas and find them of similar quality and capability, and I find in my experience that their general quality and reliability has improved over quality Toyota rigs of yesteryear - a difficult achievement.

So why post it? Should I put up pictures of your torn off A-arm and say that all Toyotas are unreliable junk?



What is it in the mechanicals of the Rubicon and the Power Wagon that you do not like? I still maintain that these REAL vehicles, available in the US, have better components than your imaginary Toyota.

Here's my wish list for this FJ...

selectable lockers front and rear
4.0 v6 engine at least, diesel would be plus
taco rear axle on coils
94 ish 80 front hi pinion coiled
dual 2.28 geared 23 spline cases with marlin
5 spd auto or h55f manual
curb weight of under 3300 lbs
33 inch tires
reinforced rocker panels
fully boxed frame
4 wheel disc brakes
hoseable interior

and the biggie...
priced between 18-24 depending on level of comfort options.

yeah right...

Give someone a few years to drive to the mall with it and take the depreciation hit, then buy it and build it, and you will meet all your expectations, every one you care to!

As far as the reliability issue regarding domestics in general, not just Jeeps, I could list a hundred different problems that I've "personally" experienced in domestic vehicles that I haven't had in the three Japanese makes that I've owned or driven. But I didn't want to waste a bunch of time on that since that's not the point of the thread.

OK, don't take my word for it. Check out Consumer Report's instead.

Note that in the most reliable catagory, Toyota/Subaru/Honda make up 19 out of the 32 top vehicles in 2003. They make up 2 out of the worst 35 reliable vehicles. Note that Toyota gets dinged for it's V-6, likely the headgasket issue. Note that Jeep is in the worst catagory. In the most reliable catagory, I see 1 Domestic vehicle. In the least reliable catagory, I see 19 Domestic and DC vehicles.

Obviously, CR is not the end all source for reliablity, I have my own problems with CR, but I'm sure if I wanted to spend the time, I could many other reports about domestic quality verses certain Japanese makers. Maybe JD Power, for example.

You did not answer my question Brian: What is it in the mechanicals of the Rubicon and the Power Wagon that you do not like?

And don't you think that it is a bit misleading to post those photos in this thread and then say "oh yeah, they don't mean anything". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

It's the general reliabity ratings of that and similier makes compared to Toyota that I'm critisizing. Both stasticially, as proven by a number of resources and from my own personal experience. What more do you want me to say? Do you want me to dig up even more evidence? I'm not critisizing the lockers, or the T-case or the goodies that they come with. I think, as I've said before, those are great features and make them very capable rigs.



Lets assume I didn't put any disclaimer on there, which I did. What is misleading about telling and showing you the facts. A bone stock (OK sorry, it had 1" taller tires) IFS 4Runner did better on a particular stretch of trail, than a bone stock Rubicon? Obviously, other people can make their own judgements as to why. (Driver skill, fluke, etc.) This isn't meant to imply that the Jeep sucks off road. But does bring up the point that maybe the IFS 4Runner is a pretty good tough rig.

Getting back to the point of the thread, if Toyota were to include twin lockers lower T-case gearing etc, I think it might give the Rubicon a run for it's money and I still stand by my assertion that the Toyota is likely to be more reliable overall.

Oh, excuse me, I thought I was entering a forum about the new FJ Cruiser. Must have clicked on the wrong link!

IF Toyota does produce such a vehicle I am sure that it will give the Rubicon a run for its money. As Bill and Brian Gallus have both said already though, you will be disappointed. (Feel free to gloat if Toyota proves me wrong...)