i think the clincher was when we went up to green river a few weekends ago to go fishing... long trip. he kept talking about all the creature comforts. my bro-inlaw kept trying to call me out, so we did a little digging as well. he kept saying "man we should of brought a shovel". never even spun a tire, and that was on soaking wet silt! we billygoated up a few hills that buried the inclinometer <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> with the same results. yup... pop-inlaw was won over from the imperialist american car makers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />!