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Re: Acetone in fuels! #605364 05/25/05 03:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,768
BigJim Offline
Web Wheeler
Ok sunder you say: an explosion is the rapid combustion of everything in a medium at once.
I would question even an atomic explosion as being "at once"! "once" is gonna be a hard thing to do with any media.. In some fields .003 sec is pretty damn fast.. You ever been in the checkout line at WalMart? Somebody should quote WEBSTER about here don't you think?
Big Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


professional bovine relocation specialist
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: BigJim] #605365 05/25/05 03:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,398
JeePete Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Ask and ye shall receive! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Quote
exÀploÀsion
n.


1. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.
2. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.
3. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: JeePete] #605366 05/25/05 05:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 512
fishtaker Offline
Rock Warrior
Quote
A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.


Sounds like what happens inside an engine to me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />


03 TJ 5 Speed I-6 30X9.50 BFG KO's
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: fishtaker] #605367 05/25/05 06:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 947
Berkeley Offline
Jeep Moderator
Sunder is correct. Gasoline burns. <edit>That is, in the context of normal combustion inside an engine, the gasoline is burned. Even outside that context... such as a tank full of vapors, or vapor in the still air... I suppose it could be seen as an explosion. Even the fastest-burning pistol powder does not explode (in the context of normal operation).</edit>

Can we safely say the acetone discussion is finished? If not, keep going. I thought we discussed it rationally and sanely, without any drama. Thank you all! Any side topics, let's start another thread. smile

Last edited by Berkeley; 05/25/05 06:31 PM.
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: JeePete] #605368 05/25/05 06:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,817
F
Fred Blackstone Offline OP
Body Damage is Cool
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Jeepete, this has been fun, and thanks for the timely definitions!

BigJim, I'm sorry your grandson was burned so badly; what a terrible thing to have happen! My best wishes to your family and especially to your grandson for a speedy and complete healing.

Sunder, I understand your hang-up about using the word explosion to describe what happens in the combustion chamber. All explosions occur just as you describe; at some point in the gas-air mixture volume, a molecule, not all at the same time, has sufficient heat to cause the carbon to carbon and carbon to hydrogen chemicals bonds to "break", explosively releasing the chemical energy as heat, light, sound, etc., and the hot gases of CO2 and H2O; and then, cause your chain reaction throughout the gas-air mixture volume as you have described. The igniting of the gas-air mixture is done after the gas-air mixture is compressed by the piston to allow the exploding molecules' gaseous by-products at high pressure to effectively force the piston down the combustion chamber to turn the crankshaft. Burning is a word that describes the combustion of materials as seen by the eye. At the molecular level, the release of enegy from chemical bonds is explosive.


94 YJ, SOA, 2-1/2 Alcans, ARB-front, Detroit-Rear, 4.56:1 gears, Oasis Trailhead compressor, 4:1 Terra Lo, 37x12.50x15 SSR's, 8000 lb Ramsey, & etc.
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: Fred Blackstone] #605369 05/25/05 09:56 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 262
Reign Offline
Mudrunner
there are different deffinitions applied to many words considering the field of study or use, im sure if you look in a chemestry or a chemical dictionary sunders deffinition would be in there.....


94'YJ, I4, 4in sky jacker lift kit, 2in body, 35 12.50 pro comps, arb snorkle, detroit lockers
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: Reign] #605370 05/25/05 11:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,768
BigJim Offline
Web Wheeler
I knew someone would find a dictionary... I am surprized that there was one in Mississippi... Thanks Pete, you prolly had to scour the whole state for one huh?
Fred thanks.. I spoke with the doc last evening and SHE said he WILL have a complete recovery. What I left out is the fact that he is listed as the #1 highschool baseball pitcher in the state of Texas.. He has had 3 universities and one pro team scout him out, as a 16 year old Junior no less! Already rated above all the seniors in the state ... He promised the doc 2 tickets to his first PRO game.. Whata kid!
Big Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


professional bovine relocation specialist
Re: Acetone in fuels! [Re: BigJim] #605371 05/27/05 09:49 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Somehow missed this thread and almost sorry I came across it but being in the refined petroleum pipeline business I can let you in on some of the Oil company "secrets" that are not really secrets.

1. Gas is gas.

What I mean is that although some make a "top tier" rated gas, it gets pumped into the same pipeline where most often it is commingled with other gas and maybe even bought and sold to someone else before it gets to it's destination a few days later.
When it gets there, it is likely put into a common tank with everyone elseÆs gas and only separated by a number on the inventory sheet. With 50,000 barrels of gas in a tank with 15-20 other shippers, which 1000 barrels belongs to Company XYZ? Trucks comes in and load out of the same rack for several "Major brands" out of the same piece of pipe.
So if gas is gas, what is the difference between Brands??????

2. Additives..that's what.

As each truck is loaded EVERY load of gas is FEDERALLY MANDATED to receive a minimum amount of additive.
Why??
The Federal Government has done actual research and found that it cleans the engine, makes it run better and cleaner, and allows for improved mileage...which is good for the ozone and conservation...don't you know.

Some Major Brands put a lot of R&D into their brand of additive and claim it cleans engines better and will make your engine run better and last longer.
By the way, the Major Brand of additive put in your gas is extremely minimal...Like .00017 to .00034 of a gallon per gallon of gas. The Fed req min is around .00012
The cost of additive is around $5.00-$15.00 per gallon and must be injected into the truck via it's proprietary injection system at a cost of $150,000 to install.

Some don't think it's worth the R&D or cost and "Share" additive. Some inject this "generic" additive at higher rate.

3. Acetone, alcohol, and other go better additives.

These type of things cannot be put in the pipelines so they will NEVER come out of a refinery.
In AZ we inject 10% alcohol into the truck at the rack into the "winter blend" of fuels to "reduce emissions". This is a lower octane because alcohol is a natural octane boost. Alcohol is around 114-115 octane. They also get a tax break on it because they are helping the Midwest farmers produce corn.
If acetone did a better job, I'm sure we'd inject that...then again maybe not.
That would depend on availability, cost to produce, transport, and inject. This of course would be only after they determine what it did to engines, seals, and ground water.
You remember MTBE? It was actually a petroleum product with many characteristics of alcohol except it ate rubber seals and ruined ground water if and when it got there. It is now banned. Do you want Acetone in your well water when a gas station develops a leaky underground tank?

Those are just SOME of the reasons that the oil companies do what they do and don't do what you do when you add a few ounces of acetone to your rust bucket.

I could go on, but I have written a novel already and my index fingers are tired from typing. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />

Re: Acetone in fuels! #605372 05/28/05 07:17 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 475
S
sindersblue Offline
Mudrunner
This is a great thread! There is a book I've read Forced induction Performance tuning By A. Graham Bell. While it does have lots of info on super/turbo chargers and some normal aspiration, the book's chapter 12 deals entirely w/ fuels. There is no way for me to sumarise the info. into a post so I wont even try, but it is definetly worth a look as there is more involved than I ever imagined. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> As for the Yota guy posting in the Jeep forum, I'm actualy a Jeep guy as I have an 83 Scrambler in pieces tucked away in my barn. I just pound pavement W/Toys. One day I'll finish the Jeep and all will be right again! Hope the book can help! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


"If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly".

85 22RE, 5spd 4Runner project
87 Turbo Truck, Boost Controller, otherwise stock... for now.
86 Turbo 4Runner, Project
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