I wish you were wrong. Unfortunately, you are about 83% right. The remaning 17% are about customer education: if there is no product available on the market, then nobody needs it. Majority of customers just do not want unexisting products. Sometimes, new products must be introduced to the public.

When Joe made some efforts in the past to introduce the new products, then probably the public was not ready yet: there was not many 2Gen Isuzus actively used for wheeling, and 2gen owners usually care more about the underbody protection and about the ride quality than 1gen owners. May be, now it would be a different story, regarding torsion bars and skid plates. But I can only tell about myself.

Lots of factors to consider, some have been touched here.

One that hasn't is application, meaning how one uses their 'Zu. I'll go out on a limb and say that most 'Zu's aren't rock crawlers, but are trail rides (OK, really, most are commuters that never see dirt/rocks/mud). By trail rides, I mean that the truck is used primarily as a daily driver, and gets ocassional use on trails, be it hunting, fishing, camping, or site-seeing off the pavement.

IMO, these trucks don't need "crawler" armor. They need something durable, attractive, and inexpensive. Granted, these are relative terms, so I'll elaborate:

durable--more substantial than OEM bumpers.

attractive--simple design with minimal angles/contours and
appendages. Less fab time and material cost
translates to lower finished product price.

inexpensive--least definitive category, I know; factor
margins for fixed and variable costs,
and profit...I'd like to see some offerings
under $200.

Dreamland? Maybe. But then that may be why if you browse the 4x4 forums you see all kinds of home-fabricated bumpers, sliders, and miscellaneous other bits. I'll know for sure only after I build (another) one myself.

The last bumper I built met two of the above criteria. 11 years ago I built a front bumper for my Samurai, in about two hours with $10 worth of scrap tube, angle iron, and expanded metal. Durable--yes; attractive--no, not even close; inexpensive--yes.

Example of what I'm talking about--see Strawmyers' rear bumper on his 'Zu. Durable, inexpensive, and attractive.

There's a guy on ebay selling Cherokee "crawler" bumpers for around $200 for a pair, front and rear. Others selling bumpers for various makes/models in that range or slightly more, with more "features", and what appears to be competent construction. (That's the big "if" with buying home fab, versus buying from a reputable mfgr, versus making it ones self).

Two factors inherent with home fabrication--"built not bought" carries some weight; the pride of doing it ones self, and second--you get precisely what you want--exact dimensions, features, materiel composition, location of accessories, and mounting/attachment method.

I think the trend in armor is moving to home fabrication b/c more enthusiasts are acquiring skills and tools to do these projects, and manufacturers cannot profitably produce a product that is inexpensive enough to outweigh the other factors. In other words--building it myself, getting it exactly how I want it, though it will take some time and energy, but will save lots of money, is more desireable than spending $500-$1000 to get a manufactured bumper identical to the one on the rig down the street, delivered next week.

Don't think this is really that much of a factor. Most of us are kinda proud of our Zu's and regardless of what we use them for, we want them to look tough and offroady, it's a pride thing



this is really a contridiction in terms, don't see how you could do all three.

Durable- a 5 ft chunk rectangular steel would meet this requirement

Attractive- this is what drives the cost of products up, first you have to figure out the design you want and then start cutting the angles and pieces to cover the cut ends. Then you have to cap/weld on the ends, and grind down the welds, figure out the mounting brackets, build the mounting brackets then figure out wheather the bumper is going to be weld on or bolt on, drill holes (mounting bracket isn't as cut and dry and simple as for a cherokee). after you've figured out and constructed the bumper, you'll need the sand, prime, re-sand, and paint the bumper.

inexpensive- If you do-it-yourself, and have access to a mig or stick welder, chopsaw and or metal cutting bandsaw, grinder, and don't factor in your time, you could do one for under $200. I couldn't do one for that when I factor in all the materials and labor. You get what you pay for, if you want quality and craftsmanship you pay for it. If you have the skill and equipment you build yourself a nice bumper, or if you don't care you weld a piece of steel on the front frame horns and be happy with it. Unfortunately, you can't even buy a brushguard/grillguard for under $200



again, you get what you pay for. Another factor in cost is the quantity of the items built and sold. There are alot more cherokee's on the trails/road than Isuzu's. If you know you are going to sell 50 bumpers, you can sell them for less and maintain a profit margin. If I knew that I could sell a bunch of simple design front and rear bumpers, I "might" be able to keep them in the $200-$250 price range



I agree completely, when you build it yourself there is a felling of pride in your finished product. There are a bunch of Zu owners that have great fab skills and it shows in the stuff they build for there trucks. I have that pride feeling with everything I build and sell to others.



but isn't your time worth anything, if you figure in your time (pay yourself) many times it would have been more cost effective to just purchase one. If you don't value your time or just happen to have lots of spare time on your hands, this doesn't come into play. I grossly under pay mayself for most of the products I build in order to keep them somewhat affordable. For instance, the going shop rate for most welding shops is $85 per hour(and some also charge per inch/foot of weld), there is between 40ft-50ft of weld (5-7 hours) in one of my rear bumpers, then 3-5 hours of grinding/rewelding low spots, regrinding. Then 2-3 hurs sanding/filling with spot putty, resanding, priming, resanding, paint prep, painting. this doesn't even include the 4-6 hours of time cutting all the pieces and setting them up in the correct position for welding. Could I do it cheaper, probably if I cut some corners with the quality, but that's just not my style. I have always been taught, if your going to do something, do it to the best of your ability and it shows in the products I build.

First and formost,
Thank you Joe. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> Without you, Matt, Dallas and others, there would be no aftermarket.

Now of course I'm biased and yes I would love a rear bumper for my truck. My home made one is fuctional junk <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />. One thing many people don't consider when buying or building bumpers is the care and attention they take. I don't mean looks, I mean a structuraly sound piece of material. Many backyard mechanics scare the living hell out of me with some of the stuff I see. When it comes down to the saftey of you and others on the highway, I let the proffessionals do the major work.

If I'm not mistaking CA state law requires all points of attachment (tow hitches, tow hooks) on a vehicle to meet the ASME structural standards. And all welds performed by a certified welder. Not to many backyard welders have taken the the certification courses. I'm not knocking any welders that know there stuff, just making a point.

The aftermarket is there for people that relize whats above thier skill level and price range. The bumper may be $600-700, but adding up the cost of all the tools needed to PROPERLY build a bumper is much more.

When I'm towing a boat (yeah what a dream <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) down the highway at 65mph, hit a large pothole, I want to know that bumper can handle it. This is just as significat (if not more) off-road, a 9000# winch will tell you very quickly what a quality product is and isn't.

Just throwing around my 2 pennies.

Scott F.

joe, when can I put my order in <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Joe



Not only that but I use my Trooper in my job which initials a vast majority of metro/city driving. I prefer to have bumpers that are tough and don't give when some Jack-<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />parallel parks by hitting what's in front and behind him. In the last 2 years I have been hit 3 times by morons behind me not paying attention (every damn one talking on a cell phone) in stop and go traffic. The last time I had to replace the bumper. A nice stout bumper like this Darlington-OffRoad most likely would have resulted in all the damage being confined to the other vehicle.

Well, again..I want to reiterate what others have said...THANKS JOE, for going out on a limb and trying to bring products to the market that people want and can use.

As far as building versus buying...talk to any fabricator and most(if not all) will tell you it is much cheaper to buy something that is aready on the market then by having one built.

Costs of the metal involved is usally only about 20%(at least that is what I was told by a fabricator) of the final price...most is racked up by what Joe explained, man hours doing the cutting/welding/grinding/painting, etc. Now, if you have the time like Joe said go for it...if you don't, or don't want to wait 12 months to finish it doing it in your sparetime, buy it. Both are attractive options.....DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU WANT.

I can tell you I should have gone to a fabricator to build my half-doors. I am sure it would have saved me money/time, but I wanted to do it myself...specifically for the pride factor. I ended up spending close to 100 hours to build them. Now, I am sure a compentent welder/fabricator could have done it in 8-10(if not less) with another 5 in finishing and painting,but it was a learning experience for me.

I guess what I am saying is everything we build/buy for our truck is expensive one way or the other....just depends on what you value more. I personally like Joe's designs, and would definately be interested in a bumper(with a new tire carrier please <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) But at the sametime I would enjoy the experience of building my own. When and if he does decide to build a 1st gen Rodeo bumper(and I haven't already started building my own) I will truely weigh what I want more...to build it myself for the experience, or buy it, knowing the quality and strength are there. Joe does his homework, and I trust his products.

I appreciate the work and effort all our vendors put in to things.
Steve

Yeah there is really alot of work into these!!! And the kind of work sucks!! Try grinding/welding/regrinding/rewelding all in the heat of the day. And its all really really dirty work, at least when I do it. Theres alot of time cleaning up after you build the the bumper too. Most people don't realize just how much work goes into these. I didn't "really" realize until I built my own. Its deffinatly worth it to buy bumpers.!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Precisely the point I made-- simple design with minimal angles/contours and appendages. Less fab time and material cost translates to lower finished product price.

Regarding durable, attractive, and inexpensive in the terms that I described--



I think that's why many people are building their own, or buying them through non-traditional sources from individuals or "garage fab shops"...because they can and do.

Maybe I have an exaggerated perception of the trend toward home-fabricated bumpers, sliders, cages, etc.? Maybe the plain and simple, inexpensive bumper market is a small niche market that I erroneously percieve to be greater than it is because I am part of it? 'Cause I know that I really am a tight-wad when it comes to spending money! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[quote
Precisely the point I made-- [i]simple design with minimal angles/contours and appendages. Less fab time and material cost translates to lower finished product price [/quote]

I would be happy to entertain building some inexpensive bumpers if you could come up with a design that meets the specifications listed above that the other "cheapskates" (no offense intended) on the board would be willing to buy.

OK, I will send you a PM before Monday and put some links together of examples for you to view.

Tracy