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Re: Fuel Economy [Re: MontyMcV] #639327 09/13/05 02:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 218
J
juggernaut Offline
Wheeler
I have never gotten less than 15 mpg. Finally got my AC workin and I still get at least 200 miles out of a tank. Highway is much better.


2001 Jeep Wrangler Sahara/4" Rough Country Lift/BFG 32x11.5x15
I caught this "JEEP thing" of your and now it hurts when I pee.
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: juggernaut] #639328 09/13/05 03:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
N
NumLock Offline
Body Damage is Cool
not going over 65 and almost all highway miles i get about 20 miles to the gallon.

i find that if you pee in the gas tank you can get a few extra miles, but if you have gotten drunk in the last few hours it will detract from the MPG. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


sorry.... with all that has happened i am trying to find my funny bone.

Last edited by NumLock; 09/13/05 03:36 PM.

88 Montero, 2'lift, 31X10.5, front locker.
"Because you're mine, I walk the line."
Re: Fuel Economy #639329 09/13/05 05:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 913
L
Lee N Offline
Rock Warrior
Quote

<snip>
15.25 MPG on 91 unleaded fuel.

it was of time and the computer was throwing weird codes <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" /> its still not awesome but it might also have something to do with Venezuelan gas quality. Way less regulations here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />.
<snip>


You may want to try regular instead of premium. I'm sure the 12V 3.0 isn't designed for premium, so you're just throwing away money. Premium actually burns slower (appears to be myth, see replys below LN) than regular and unless your engine is designed to use premium (higher compression, etc) or you experience pre-ignition, it may actually hurt performance.

Last edited by Lee N; 09/13/05 07:38 PM.

Lee
'94 LS, 3.0 V6, Auto, completely stock
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: Lee N] #639330 09/13/05 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,132
K
Kevin C Offline
Trail Leader
****
My take.... Higher octane done not automatically mean a slower burning fuel, my understanding is there is no direct correlation. The resistance to detonation is based on certain chemicals not forming during the combustion process that lead to spontaneous ignition, detonation resistance is based on preventing those compounds from forming ( I cant remember their names of the top of my head).

This is not the common belief and I am sure that someone will say its wrong.

One thing worth looking at is the O2 sensor. If I remember right leaded gas is commonly available in Venezuela. If your computer system is designed for closed loop and you get a few tanks of leaded your O2 sensor could be bad, leading to a drop in fuel economy.

Kevin


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: MontyMcV] #639331 09/13/05 06:30 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,132
K
Kevin C Offline
Trail Leader
****
Things that helped my turbo Raider fuel economy:

The air temp sensor in the MAF had a poor solder joint resulting in a higher resistance and poor fuel metering. Test it and repair as needed.

An old O2 sensor that did not read right.

A poor connection on the intake manifold temp sensor.

A worn dist with a bad vacuum advance mechanism. The wear was in the bushing area where the advance plate rotates on the main shaft. It was loose and egg shaped right at cruise rpm. This caused spark scatter and poor ignition.

Factory alignment setting at maximum camber gave high rolling resistance with big tires. Resetting it to near 0 and upping the pressure helped a lot.

A down pipe that eliminates the front conveter, less back pressure = better throttle response and better fuel economy. This is a great modification, the difference in torque is amazing. I posted pictures on this a while ago, you might be able to find it doing a search.

A hollowed front converter helps but the section that bolts to the turbo needs porting, nasty bend. My second converter is a larger high flow unit.

A lockup torque converter for my auto, this added an easy 2+ mpg on the highway.

I went from 13 mpg on the highway to 20 or so at speeds a bit over 70, 75 mph typically. The engine also throws off a lot less heat and runs cooler now.

Kevin C


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: Kevin C] #639332 09/13/05 06:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
Octane

Octane and Mileage

Quote
The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.

It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.

During WWI, it was discovered that you can add a chemical called tetraethyl lead (TEL) to gasoline and significantly improve its octane rating above the octane/heptane combination. Cheaper grades of gasoline could be made usable by adding TEL. This led to the widespread use of "ethyl" or "leaded" gasoline. Unfortunately, the side effects of adding lead to gasoline are:

Lead clogs a catalytic converter and renders it inoperable within minutes.
The Earth became covered in a thin layer of lead, and lead is toxic to many living things (including humans).
When lead was banned, gasoline got more expensive because refineries could not boost the octane ratings of cheaper grades any more. Airplanes are still allowed to use leaded gasoline (known as AvGas), and octane ratings of 100 or more are commonly used in super-high-performance piston airplane engines. In the case of AvGas, 100 is the gasoline's performance rating, not the percentage of actual octane in the gas. The addition of TEL boosts the compression level of the gasoline -- it doesn't add more octane.


Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: Kevin C] #639333 09/13/05 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,269
justice Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
Kevin C, Just curious, your in Cali right? how do you get your turbo and other related mods to pass smog every two years?


99 Gen 2.5, fixing blown head gasket
89 SWB- 33's, ARB Front locker, SR rear locker/axle, SR F brakes, winch, WST Offroad Armor all Around, 2.85 Aussie T-case Gears (SOLD)
Sold: (2) 95 SR's, 86 SWB, 90LWB, 91 LWB
-Can Change a timing belt in my sleep..
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: FrankR] #639334 09/13/05 07:06 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,132
K
Kevin C Offline
Trail Leader
****


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/section-1.html
Quote

High octane fuels
produce end gases that take longer to autoignite, so the good flame front
reaches and consumes them properly.

The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless
of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry.


I donÆt deny there is conflicting information about this, however after reading a number of write-ups saying flame speed is dependent on octane VS its not I found that those that said it was not were typically based research and had a lot more (lab data) data and testing to back up their claim.

Quote
The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of the hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:


1: The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates have lower energy contents, but high octanes.

2: The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other factors that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio, stoichiometry, combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence etc.) Flame speed does not correlate with octane.


web page

SAE has good test reports on this and you may find some info on Google.

Kevin C


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: justice] #639335 09/13/05 07:14 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,132
K
Kevin C Offline
Trail Leader
****
I have the swap verified as legal at a referee station. They make sure that all the smog equipment is hooked up and it burns cleanly, it also gets a very good visual inspection.

This swap is legal since the engine is a newer one than my Raider came with and it meets tighter emissions specifications than my original engine did.

The down pipe is hidden under heat shields so it passes a visual, also the referee shop only needed to see one working converter since that was what my Raider came with.

Basically, you can swap if its newer and cleaner and its all hooked up, but the CARB station will check and failing will keep you from getting your registration tags.

Kevin C


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Fuel Economy [Re: Kevin C] #639336 09/13/05 09:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
The two links I posted were not intended to resolve the question of flame speed relative to octane rating, but rather to get back to the question of the choice of octane rating for an engine - the purpose of octane and its effect on fuel mileage.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
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