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Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: johnpsz] #653344 10/18/05 06:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
Quote
Could this be the problem???

Please say yes!!!!


How 'bout... maybe?

1) A/C and lights off
2) warm engine until idle is stabilized
3) stop engine (ignition switch "OFF")
4) check for cable kinks (I assume there are none)
5) check inner cable for correct slack = .04-.08" (I assume there is some from what you said)
6) if there's too much or not enough slack, adjust as follows:

a) turn ignition switch to "ON" position (without starting the engine) and leave it in that condition for approximately 15 seconds
b) loosen the adjusting bolts on the air intake plenum and then secure the outer cable so that the free play of the inner cable will be the standard .04-.08" value.

FSM NOTE:
If there is excessive play of the accelerator cable, the vehicle speed drop ("undershoot") when climbing a slope will be large.
If there is no play (excessive tension) of the accelerator cable, the idling speed will increase.

7) after adjusting, confirm that the throttle valve fully opens and closes by operating the accelerator pedal.

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: FrankR] #653345 10/18/05 09:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 194
J
johnpsz Offline OP
Wheeler
Quote
5) check inner cable for correct slack = .04-.08" (I assume there is some from what you said)
6) if there's too much or not enough slack, adjust as follows:

a) turn ignition switch to "ON" position (without starting the engine) and leave it in that condition for approximately 15 seconds
b) loosen the adjusting bolts on the air intake plenum and then secure the outer cable so that the free play of the inner cable will be the standard .04-.08" value.

FSM NOTE:
If there is excessive play of the accelerator cable, the vehicle speed drop ("undershoot") when climbing a slope will be large.
If there is no play (excessive tension) of the accelerator cable, the idling speed will increase.

7) after adjusting, confirm that the throttle valve fully opens and closes by operating the accelerator pedal.

Frank

I guess I should adjust but I don't see this causeing my problem, but there is a good deal of slack, maybe .5 - .75" if I remember correctly, didn't actually measure it yet...


John Pszenyczniak
67 Mustang Coupe
95 Firebird Formula
05 Ram hemi 4x4
91 Montero RS LWB w/ 320k miles before rebuild, 900 down and its still kicking!!!
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: johnpsz] #653346 10/18/05 10:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
Quote
FSM NOTE:
If there is excessive play of the accelerator cable, the vehicle speed drop ("undershoot") when climbing a slope will be large.


I thank that part's only for the cruise control function, since the cruise throttle actuator only has a limited stroke, and too much slack wont let the cruise open the throttle far enough to hold speed on an upslope...

The zero or infinite resistance terminals are the idle position switch (IPS), to put the ecu in idle state, or for fuel cut on decel from speed. The smoothly varying terminals are the throttle position sensor (TPS). Since this is a mass air system, throttle position sensing is used for detection of driver intent (accelerate, cruise, or decelerate by comparing movement over time), and as a backup for air quantity if the mass air sensor fritzes. It's a fuel trim sensor in most cases, rather than a primary fuel controller like the mass air sensor in this system.

I don't think the tps would keep it from crank at all, unless the IPS value is wrong for closed throttle, like Frank posted the test for. You say it has spark. Are you sure it's at the right time on the right cylinder? Don't ask why I ask....

That leaves fuel. I'd take the fuel feed line loose from the fuel rail, and cycle the starter to pump some into a glass jar. Measure quantity vs. pumping time. I'd remove and clean the fuel pickup in the tank, and blow out the lines, and clean the pump intake screen, and replace the fuel filter. Check the fuel in the jar for little water bubbles rolling around the bottom. If it smells like varnish, drain and dispose, and refill with good fuel and good injector cleaner.

I'd listen at the injector with a mech. stethoscope or piece of metal tube for injector clicking on cranking.

I'd read the ecu codes, just for the hell of it.


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: FrankR] #653347 11/12/05 03:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 194
J
johnpsz Offline OP
Wheeler
I am back from the Honeymoon and now have the time to get back into playing with this thing, hopefully I get it figured out before it gets too damn cold outside...

Frank I have a question below about one of your trouble shooting steps.
Quote

If you still haven't found a suspect, test for the ECU TPS voltage:

1) ECU terminals are 1-12 (L-R, top row) and 13-24 (L-R, bottom row).
2) Ignition switch "ON", but don't start the engine
3) probe wires to terminal 19 & 24 - voltage should be between 0.4-1.0v. If it's out of range, check the TPS harness (wiggle it to see if the voltage signal changes).

That'll keep you busy for a bit.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank

In step 3 I am not supposed to disconnect the ECU Harness from the ECU correct? Just probe into the back of the connector? Or did I need to pull the connector off and probe the wires?

Thanks,
John


John Pszenyczniak
67 Mustang Coupe
95 Firebird Formula
05 Ram hemi 4x4
91 Montero RS LWB w/ 320k miles before rebuild, 900 down and its still kicking!!!
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: johnpsz] #653348 11/12/05 04:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
John -

I've never done that test, but I would think you should have everything plugged in to perform the test. You might have to remove the ECU to get at the wiring, rig whatever you need to result in a temporary pigtail for those two connections, plug it back together and read the voltage on the pigtail leads.

It might be easier to identify the wires without removing anything and probe them straight away if you can get to them without taking out the ECU. #19 is green/white and #24 is black.

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: FrankR] #653349 11/14/05 01:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 194
J
johnpsz Offline OP
Wheeler
Frank,

My results are in red in th quoted section below.
Quote


1) Remove the TPS electrical connector
2) 4 pins on the TPS are 1,2,3,4 (L-R)
3) Resistance between 1&4 should be 3.5-6.5K ohms[color:"red"] good [/color]
4) Resistance between 1&3 should change smoothly and proportionately as the throttle valve is opened from closed to WOT[color:"red"] good [/color]
5) Resistance between 1&2 should be 0 ohms (conductive) with accelerator pedal released, infinite ohms (non-conductive) with accelerator pedal depressed. If you flunk this test, you'll have to adjust the TPS clocked position.[color:"red"] This is where it comes into a little problem I think... Not 0 ohms, actually after clocking it the least I could get was 30 ohms, but when the throttle is pressed it does open. Is that bad? Originally it was reading about 1830 ohms...[/color]

There's also a test for the fixed SAS, but let's leave that for later.

If you still haven't found a suspect, test for the ECU TPS voltage: [color:"red"] I tried this after getting the TPS as low as possible as stated above [/color]

1) ECU terminals are 1-12 (L-R, top row) and 13-24 (L-R, bottom row).
2) Ignition switch "ON", but don't start the engine
3) probe wires to terminal 19 & 24 - voltage should be between 0.4-1.0v. If it's out of range, check the TPS harness (wiggle it to see if the voltage signal changes).
[color:"red"]My voltage was .166V, this is well below the range, this is even after wiggling harness and cables... [/color]

That'll keep you busy for a bit.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank


Does this mean I have a bad TPS?


John Pszenyczniak
67 Mustang Coupe
95 Firebird Formula
05 Ram hemi 4x4
91 Montero RS LWB w/ 320k miles before rebuild, 900 down and its still kicking!!!
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: johnpsz] #653350 11/14/05 05:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
It sure sounds like it - before you buy one let's see if Conner has an opinion on it... The TPS can be adjusted and I'm wondering if you do adjust it if it will change any of the resistance readings and/or the ECU voltage.... I think it might. Conner?

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: FrankR] #653351 11/17/05 11:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 194
J
johnpsz Offline OP
Wheeler
Quote
It sure sounds like it - before you buy one let's see if Conner has an opinion on it... The TPS can be adjusted and I'm wondering if you do adjust it if it will change any of the resistance readings and/or the ECU voltage.... I think it might. Conner?

Frank

Not sure who Conner is, but I have waited almost a week for him to read this and respond, is there a way you can PM him and ask.. It is getting quite cold out there and I am hoping to have this thing running soon...

BTW, does anyone have the part number of the TPS? How much are they normally?


John Pszenyczniak
67 Mustang Coupe
95 Firebird Formula
05 Ram hemi 4x4
91 Montero RS LWB w/ 320k miles before rebuild, 900 down and its still kicking!!!
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: johnpsz] #653352 11/18/05 05:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline
Web Wheeler
****
I sent a PM to Conner and asked him to review the thread - hopefully he'll see it and respond shortly.

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: WTF, Extra parts and it won't start.. [Re: FrankR] #653353 11/18/05 01:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 644
C
conner Offline
Rock Warrior
Here is how i would test the TPS. Disconnect the connector at the TPS and measure voltage on the harness side with key on.
Y/R wire-------12 volts
G/B wire-------Ground
G/Y wire-------5 volts
Plug connector back on and read voltages
Y/R wire-------Throttle closed----0 volts
Throttle opened----12 volts
G/W wire-------Throttle closed----.05 to .08 volts
Voltage should increase smoothly as throttle is opened to full position.
If the first set of tests are good and one of the second set of tests fail, the TPS is bad.
Conner


Over the hill but still climbing.
88 Montero 2.6L auto, manual hubs, cooling fan conversion gps,recurved distributor,LSD Diff.
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