no, many aren't. there are many, many muslims...even in this country...screaming at the top of their lungs that radical islamic fundamentalists do not represent their views. the problem is that very few non-muslims want to listen.

there are also many, many muslims who try to get through to the militant fundamentalists that they are not truely following islam. the problem is that the fundamentalists don't want to listen.

(another problem is that we keep doing things that make it harder and harder for moderate muslims to refute the claims of the radicals that the west is a bunch of crusading imperialists who are waging a war on islam.)

so, what exactly do you suggest moderate muslims do about the situation? they certainly cannot physically stop islamic terrorists from doing what they do anymore than you can physically stop christian terrorists from doing what they do.

there probably are such groups...and i will say that they do not represent my views or the view of most athiests, but...

if such a group were to start doing violent things that made the news, you can bet that the many christian americans would come to the conclusion that all athiests are terrorists and nothing i could say would change most of their minds...

frankly, there are already a not tiny number christians out there who think that all athiests are morally bankrupt, evil people...and nothing i or any other athiest can say or do will ever change their minds.

OK, I shouldn't have said " all" . But there is a difference between " many, many," and " most". MOST seem to be silent. Do you hear much in the media about counter-protest? When it happened in Jordan a while back it was ALL OVER the news. Anything even CLOSELY resembling that since?

There are stupid people everywhere. On both sides of the fence. And I challenge your notion of " many ".



You want to think that, fine. There are a lot of Christians here, that you have had many discussions with. BY your logic, some of them see you as you describe. Do you really think that anybody here sees you as evil and morally bankrupt? Do you think I see you as that way? I challenge your perception that all atheists are percieved that way. Do you act that way? No....least I don't think so. And besides, even if all athiests were perceived that way....you think all Christians are delusional. And nothing I can say will ever change your mind. What's the difference?

EDIT>>> In retrospect, that last line sounds....harsh. I dont' mean for it to come across that way.

The key here is that, even though Stan and I have radiacally different belief systems, or one of us does and the other doesn't, or whatever...neither would be willing to kill the other for having a different view. And if others more radical than we DID kill for that reason, and in doing so claimed that it was the one and only true way, and proper to do, for that particular belief system, ( or lack of <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I for one, would not sit and let that mentality take over. Sure, I can't speak for all, only myself. But I have to beleive that others would do the same. In my heart, I don't think that all Muslims are terrorists. I just wish that the ones who AREN't radical, and that DON"T condone the killing of innocents, would try a little harder to tell the rest of the world that " these animals don't speak for us". Maybe I'm under-informed, or just ignorant, but that doesn't seem to be happening very much right now...

Stan, you really need to meet more Christians. I suspect you've gotten an unrepresentative sample for any number of reasons. I suppose that might be a diplomatic way of recommending more social diversity... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />

I keep hearing these summary descriptions of Christians, or perhaps conservatives, and they do make me ill, and they do make me want to distance myself from them. Yet... of all of the Christians or conservatives I actually know, I am not sure I could use up more than one hand counting such cases. Reverse the stereotype and consider liberals, or atheists, the same is true.

Not to say your point about Christians or conservatives that actually get air time don't fit your mold, but... they also serve to reinforce a disturbing stereotype, and therefore are natural candidates for media selection. I think they should have a harder time getting airtime, personally! I will say this, they stir the pot and therefore discussion. But they are not representative.

Said all that to say this: the same dynamic is true of Muslims. I know quite a few Muslims as well (here at work), and to a person they find islamofascism disturbing. But there are also cultural differences that prevent them from denouncing extremism, and these are not primarily about western imperialism.

Example: a Pakistani friend found the Taliban the sort of people he would not pick out curtains with, but he felt the US should not invade because the Taliban were honoring the value of protecting a guest (bin Laden), and hospitality is an extremely important value. I respectfully, and strongly, disagreed; but our differences were over cultural values, more than politics. This person did not denounce extremism, but was not himself an extremist. I do not believe his reasons were cynical excuses.

I nonetheless think his values, like mine, could use some broadening from time to time, however.

I would think this reasoning safe to generalize about large segments of the Muslim world - and the world in general.

There absolutely are such groups, have been for a couple millenia beginning with the Romans and not ending with many Marxists/Leninists. And I know some of them (a very few). One guy I was in a band with was one. He confided one day that he imagined the day would come when he would have to kill me to remove an impediment to the new age.

that was pretty much my original point, so i guess maybe we have actually gotten somewhere. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />



maybe i am too cynical about the american population. i hope so...i don't think so, but i hope so.



notice that i said "a not tiny number" rather than most or even many...because that is, at least in my experience, the truth.

i would agree that most christians are not so delusional...however, there are a number of them...and that number is not tiny (though it is also not huge)...who do hold the views i described. (i don't think many, if any, members of this forum hold these views, but this forum is definitely not representative of american society in general.)

(i have encountered a fair number of christians who think all athiests are evil personally...i came from a very christian background...and people like pat robertson could not afford to stay on TV if there were not a sufficient number of delusional christians sending him donations.)



The difference, imho, is that I do not expect maintstream Christians to somehow stop radical Christians from doing what they do (or thinking what they think) whereas you do seem to expect mainstream Muslims to somehow stop radical Muslims. But, I still do not understand what you think they can do about it?

For starters... they could denounce violence and terrorism, speaking from their positions of influence. Many are. More could. More should.

well, i did go to catholic schools for 12 years...went to church 3 times a week until i was 18...my mother is the principal of a catholic school...my father used to be a teacher in a catholic school...had a bunch of protestant and neocon friends in college...i have met and had many, many hours of discussions with a fairly large number of christians, so my views do not come only from the mass media.

however, my point was not to slam christians...or to say that most of them hold the view that all athiests are evil. rather, my point was to say that i do not expect mainstream christians to somehow stop radical christians from believing what they believe. apparently, however, i did not make my point very well.

(to address your point about my social circle--since it has come up a couple of times...at this point in my life, my social life is pretty much nil...i work ridiculous hours trying to make this business pay off...so, yes, at this point in my life, my social circle is pretty non-diverse due mainly to the fact that you can't get much diversity in a group of about 5 people. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" /> however, it has not always been that way, and i definitely am not one to exclude people from my social circle because of their beliefs.)

I think this forum is VERY represenative of american society in general. So what would pirate be? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />



But that's just it, Stan. Yeah, there are some insane radical Christians. But are they strapping on IED's and blowing up innocent people in the name of God? No, most of them are running around in the woods playing war games. What can they do, you ask... how about, rat 'em out? Tell the cops? BE MORE VOCAL!!! ANYTHING is better than nothing.