try not to extinguish every last flame.

I extinguish no flames. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Many people, like myself, and maybe Steve, are not simply looking into a 1:1 ratio between investment on equipment and return on fuel savings.

Yes, I agree. But, it has to be somewhat reasonable. I am very aware that "reasonable" is defined differently between people.

But...let's not put too many words in Steve's mouth.

He came to us with:

My goal is to get the best possible gas mileage and I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

Does anyone have any insight on how I can accomplish the best gas mileage with the options listed above or any options I have not thought about.

I would like to try and get 25 mpg or better and also improve power... (I know I am asking for a lot). Is this possible?

and finally...

All suggestions are welcome.

I am just working within what he asked. I don't intend to nay say, but if the above are his stated goals, then there are some very important pieces of information that play into the fact. Is what he wants possible is one, cost is the other. Everything else is just icing on the cake. If he said he wanted to do a 3.4 swap and wanted advice on that, the entire discussion changes. But, he didn't.

We can dream, we can think, we can wish and hope, but within reason (exotic engine swaps are not considered) it is very unlikely that Steve will see 25MPG out of his Trooper. Maybe I am being pragmatic, but I don't see rebuilding the 2.8 or building a 3.4 reaching that number. Actually, I don't see either of those producing more than his current 19MPG.

How many people around here with the 2.8 are seeing 19MPG? How many with the 3.4 are seeing 19MPG? Without starting a "What is your mileage?" thread, I would venture to say very few see that on a *consistent* basis.

So, discuss away. Just don't be so quick to dismiss the ideas that counter what is being discussed. The are just as valid as the supporting ones.

Michael

Getting 25mpg put of a gasoline Trooper might be possible with the old 1.8l motor, a tailwind, and an infinite downhill grade, but in the real world, even with a constant eyeball on a vacuum gauge, I don't see it... especially not in CA traffic.

Going with the diesel might get you where you want to be for mileage, and you might be able to recoup the investment if you brewed your own diesel, but you will be badly down on power for most anything that will fit under the hood, even relative to your stock 2.8.

I've always thought that Isuzu light trucks would make sweet electric vehicles -- the rear suspension seems factory-ready for baterries!

25mpg is a TOUGH goal.

Randii

First, I want to say that MlClark has some excellent advice on many topics, and to take him seriously. He tends to be direct in his remarks and that sometimes puts people on the defensive, but being direct is the best way to say it.

That said Troopersteve, I would think hard about what he said concerning your question about gas mileage. You want to have your cake (the trooper) and eat it too (get good gas mileage). Nobody will tell you this is impossible, with enough time, money, frustration, and effort you can make it happen. If you choose to do this, we will try our best to help you out, and will watch the results.

But, we could not in good concience recommend spending time and money to gain better gas mileage, expecting a return on your investment. As mlclark explained, this is almost impossible. So being the good natured, helpful people that we are on this board, we tell you not to do it. Dont get offended.

So, instead of dreaming about 25mpg bragging rights, think about this. You spend 2000 dollars (when you planned on 1000) and months and months of time (when you planned on 2 weeks) working on your trooper (and driving something else) to do an engine swap. Then you drive it and find out you gained only 2mpg average. Or possibly you find out you actually lost mileage.
The preceeding is a very likely scenario if you try and do an engine swap!
How would you feel then? Would you appreciate us then if we had told you "sure man, good idea! do the swap and your money problems will be solved!"


If you are set on not listening to other people, then by all means go find out the hard way. I have seen more than one person come onto the board throwing gas price temper tantrums. The answer is always the same. If you want to pay less at the pump, go buy a used honda civic. I have friends that get 40mpg, and that's approaching hybrid mileage. Keep the trooper for special trips. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Great discussion and debate here. Steve, yes the 2.2TD Troopers are hard to find and they are defined as rare for sure. There is no doubt that the 2.8/3.4 V6 engines are not going to net good mileage. If anything they resemble the closest thing to a "V8" you could get in a Trooper from the factory. In my opinion they aren't designed to get fuel mileage in the case like a 4 cylinder would do. But the thing is the 4 cylinder gas engines in the Troopers don't net real good mileage either given you are talking about moving a "brick". The diesel engine is the answer for better fuel mileage in this case. mlclark, is it really that hard to have an engine imported into the US? I never thought it would and you couldn't have it entered into the country in a shipping container.? I think buying and most importantly getting a 2.8TD shipped to the US is able to be done. I eventually plan on doing it in the future. Steve, as far as installing one into a Trooper it isn't overly hard. But please do not hold me to being absolutely sure because I have not done it myself. The transmission used on your 2.8 V6 will definetly, most likely not work with the 2.8 TD. Like the earlier 2.2TD, it uses a special transmission casing that bolts up to the diesel engine only. The starter is mounted on the opposite side on the gas engines. Thus, it's vital to get the diesel engine with transmission. As far as converting it into a factory gas Trooper it bolts in place of a 2.6/5-speed equipped Trooper. Ask acy76, he has done this same conversion that is covered in a great thread on the Isuzu Diesels forum. An important key to remember is the UK equipped Troopers came with the 2.6 4ZE1 gas engines along side with the 2.8 4JB1-T diesel engines. In the US we weren't lucky to see the optional diesel and only had the 2.6 for a choice at a 4 cylinder powerplant. The 2.8TD's are very efficient with a direct injection design, turbocharged power, and even a good power to weight ratio considering the boxy Trooper. It actually is the perfect amount of power for the Trooper in that it doesn't need to work very hard to move one, can do it, and get good fuel mileage also. In the case of the 2.2TD it was considered underpowered, needed to work harder to move a Trooper, and given that it won't usually see fuel mileage above 30 mpg. And never at that. As you can see I'm a diesel fanatic and have always been like so. It's my interest and I thought that offering you advice for fuel mileage would involve mentioning diesel as a great idea. If you have anymore questions please let me know. Glad to be in this great discussion too.

Salvy

mlclark, is it really that hard to have an engine imported into the US? I never thought it would and you couldn't have it entered into the country in a shipping container.? I think buying and most importantly getting a 2.8TD shipped to the US is able to be done. I eventually plan on doing it in the futur

The answer is a grey area. A member of this community looked at importing the 2.8TD a few years ago and it was next to impossible to do legally. Now, "legal" is where it becomes kind of grey.

If you put "19xx or 200x 2.8TD engine" on your customs paperwork, I doubt it will be allowed. If you put "Used Car Parts" it might. You could also disassemble and reassemble stateside. Who knows. The general concept is if it is not EPA approved for emissions (regardless of the actual emissions) then it is not legal in this country. Can you get around that? Maybe.

So, the answer becomes...sorta. Not very solid. If you are interested, start contacting some customs brokers. See what they have to say. Find one that specializes in cars or parts. But, for one engine, I doubt anybody would waste their time with it. Just too small of a deal. Who knows, you may need to import a whole container to make it possible, but then you are into some $$ on top of the customs, duties, taxes ect.

It would be neat to see a "final" answer, but I actually doubt there is one.

Michael

Also, i dont know quite where Maryville Tennessee is, but if you have to have any kind of inspection/emissions test, that 2.8TD would never pass, and you might get slapped with a heavy fine/impoundment.
This is just assuming that you have to have inspections where you live....perhaps im just fanning the flames... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />
-J

Michael, I totally understand now about the customs and EPA part of the ordeal. I definetly need to research more about it and understand the best way to go about getting one shipped to the US from the UK. I know if you go through a US engine importer that sells engines here in the US that were originally made for a foreign country you can get one. Their prices are never friendly though, usually $2,000+ is what you can expect just to buy the engine/trans. If and when I do buy a 2.8TD and have it shipped here successfully I will let you guys know. Will have to tune in to the Isuzu Diesels forum for that most likely. All I have to say is the 2.8TD is an attractive engine because it still delivers the durability, reliability, and a proven diesel grade design like the older 2.2TD, but is more advanced in technology given the direct injection design/turbocharged feature. It also is made in a great time frame where diesels are known for much less electronics and more mechanical features that are usually desired for longer life. It even can take to performance upgrades like most turbo diesels will and be making HP/Torque numbers equivalent to what a stock 2.8 V6 will make, but most likely much more torque and at a lower rpm of course. Jordan, I can understand mentioning the emissions test too. But for me in Pennsylvania, diesels do not require emissions testing with vehicle inspection. Only the gassers do. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey all, thought I'd toss a few comments into the fray -- be warned, though, this may qualify for the longest post award:

I think a lot of the (very civil) misunderstanding in this thread has to do with the fact that it's very difficult to express oneself properly on an internet tech forum. Smiley-faces can help, but if you're typing loads of technical information and trying to finish quickly it is very easy to sound terse. This is not directed at anyone in particular, I just think it would be a shame if anyone were offended. I think I read the beginnings of this. I know from talking with Steve and from reading his posts that he, like us, really appreciates Troopers as rather unique in their capabilities. I also think mlclark is giving spot-on economic advice - this is not a way to save money. There is something else that has to drive the project.

I think this is a great discussion to be having - we're all in this together as Isuzu fans, after all.

Steve, we talked over the phone a while back regarding the 2.8 diesel conversion I'm undertaking. One of the reasons I decided to take the project on was to improve fuel economy. The other was to make alternative fuels available to me. I want to keep the Trooper because there aren't any other affordable vahicles around that offer what it does. The closest, in my mind, would be a 60-series Land Cruiser wagon - try finding one for under $2k, though, that isn't ready for the crusher. Troopers sell all day in this range. So, I believe you and I share similar goals.

Diesel is the best way to improve fuel economy. You can mess with the gas engines and make small gains, but I think 30mpg is possible with the combination I've got. No data yet, this is speculation based on research. Reliability issues with swaps was mentioned - this really depends on how the swap is done. I've tried to use factory Isuzu pieces wherever possible, and the custom work I've had to do has been limited enough in scope (and limited to things like brackets that are reliable as rocks) that I don't think the breakdown risk will be too great. My engine and transmission mounts are all Isuzu, as are the clutch hydraulics (save for one piece of hardline and a bracket), the airbox, the fuel filter (save for the mount bracket), the glow electronics -- so I am hoping this will give me the reliability I want. Whenever I need to fabricate a part, I try and think about how the factory would have done it. Takes longer, but I think the results will be excellent.

As far as costs go, I am hoping to get this thing on the road for around $4k. That includes the cost of the truck (which was $200 with a blown 4-cyl. gas engine) and half of the budget went to buying the drivetrain. I am generally quite cheap (otherwise I would have bought the FJ-60!), so I spend a good deal of time searching for bargains. I also do all my own work, except for specialized fabrication like driveshafts and radiator modifications, etc., although others may well be able to do this themselves and save even more money. This is a price I can live with, as my gas Trooper is slowly rotting away and I need to get another vehicle anyway - $4k is peanuts for a car, so my cheapskate nature is still satisfied. Combine this with greatly improved fuel economy and I think I'll come out all right. If I "paid" myself to work on the thing, say, $10 an hour, though, all bets would be off...

Now: I've been working on this project, including research time, for over a year. Could I have done it faster? Sure, if I had more free time, or if I knew then what I know now. I honestly don't think it's too much more involved than a 3.4 swap, which I have no personal experience with (but it sounds involved to me). I've already done a *lot* of the legwork, so someone could save a ton of time by copying me. I could, for instance, give someone the part number for the lower radiator hose I used, which took days to find. But make no mistake, it's time-consuming. If you can't do the work yourself, you will need some deep pockets or some sort of slave labor in order to get everything taken care of. I don't know if anyone pays to have engines swapped, but I imagine it would be expensive. As a point of comparison, VW Vanagon diesel conversions are being done in Canada. I think it costs about $10k U.S. to have your van converted. Not sure if this figure includes the engine or not. This is probably a reasonable estimate (and it assumes the person doing the work has done it before many times, as these VW guys have) for any sort of professional diesel swap, if you could find a garage willing to take it on.

A good friend of mine has been helping me with my project, both in terms of labor and engineering. We just discussed this same problem last night (fuel economy improvements - he makes the same arguments mlclark does, and I agree with him; I am a bit of a special case, as I was going to buy a car anyway, so why not build one?). If the diesel is out of your reach, and you want the best possible mileage out of your gas Trooper, and being able to take advantage of alternative fuels, we were kicking around the idea of burning E-85 in a 4-cyl. Trooper. This would involve modifying the fuel system, possibly employing DIY fuel injection control a-la Megasquirt, which incidentally can now manage flex-fuel mixing of E-85 and unleaded gasoline by using a GM tank sensor, and some tuning. Quite involved, but in different ways than performing an engine swap. The mileage improvements wouldn't come from E-85, as the mileage actually drops, but since it has such a high octane rating you could conceiveably bump the compression ratio up and try and tune for increased economy. It costs less than gas here, and my friend (who uses it in his dodge minivan) tells me it's a wash as far as costs go. And it's (85%) renewable, so it's a winner as far as I am concerned.

All that said, maybe simply buying a 4-cyl. model is the way to go. I get 19-22 mpg out of mine. I drive very conservatively, I usually drive 55-60 on the freeway and accelerate slowly. I've driven the 2.8 V6 model and I like the 4-cyl. better - seemed to have more grunt. Failing that, buy an old diesel Trooper. I think both would be an improvement as far as economy is concerned.

I'll close by saying that if you (or anyone else) decides to tackle the 2.8 diesel swap, I am always willing to offer any assistance I can.

Acy-

Excellent post.

Do you have a 2.8TD in your hot little hands? If so, what what the process and how did you get it stateside?

I would like to point out some very important points in Acy's post. 1) He is able to do all the work himself. Fabrication of parts under no pressure of a timeline is great. It is a learning process, it saves a good deal of cash and for most, it is the fun part of the whole deal. 2) This was not his only vehicle. Again, this is something Steve has not really clarified. Having to get a large project like an engine swap done in a weekend (even the bolt in 3.4) because you have to get to work on Monday, is vastly different than breaking new ground over a long time. 3) Along with the DIY part, there are tools, knowlege, and a facility for acy to get this done. Again, Steve has not addressed this part. Just like the availablity of alternative transport, the knowledge, experience, tools, and place all play into the ability (and ultimately, cost) of such a swap. All of these things play into a yea or ney suggestion of what options to take.

As for the legal issues, please remember that we do avoid talking about non-legal activities on this board. While I understand the reasoning, swapping VIN's is illegal. It is ultimately the choice of the vehicle owner and I pass no judgement upon that choice, but it important to know it is not a "fix" but a non-legal "work around" to the laws. As for running the 2.8TD in the US, that too is illegal, but the EPA does not do active enforcement. They leave that up to the state/local authorties. So, while emisions testing may not exist in an area, it is still technically against federal law to run the 2.8TD. Will you get caught? Probably not. Could you be harassed by someone? Possibily and the fines are most likely steep. Again, no judgement on this one, but it is an important bit of information for anyone contemplating such swaps.

Finally, swapping in a 2.8TD is vastly more involved than a 3.4 swap. The 3.4 is a plug and play deal. It is no more involved than swapping out the 2.8 for another 2.8. You can have something like it up and running in a day. If you want to to TB modifications, cam changes, rocker changes ect...it can be done before hand, or after, but swapping over the necessary 2.8 pieces and bolting into the truck will make it run. The 2.8TD is probably a bit more complicated than that. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good Luck to all,
Michael <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <---look, it's a smiley

I didn't know the 3.4 swap was so simple. Actually, mounting the 2.8 is as easy provided you have the matching transmission. It's just that you need to modify/fabricate all the accessory connections, control mechanisms, etc.

Good points all. I am not a professional mechanic, although I was working in a garage for 6 years before I decided to go to college. I've got a 2-car garage and a decent set of tools and equipment. Nothing fancier than any normal motorhead has access to, so I think it's all possible provided a person has the time and inclination.

Ultimately, it's Steve who has to decide what he's comfortable doing. I personally don't think messing with a gas V6 is the best way to achieve his goals.

mlclark: I do have the 2.8 diesel installed in my Trooper and getting near road-worthiness. Check out the link in my signature or my post in the diesel section here (it's the one with over 7000 views <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) for more information. I used an engine importer in Florida to get the engine sent over from Japan in a container.