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C223T Engine run away [Re: JLEMOND] #744119 08/20/06 03:13 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
Thank You so much Jerry.
I think I may be getting this.

Man, I hope you know how much I appreciate this tutorial. Thank you. I did a few more tests yesterday. I did figure out that I was on the wrong wires for testing the fuel cutoff solenoid. Whoops. Yes, I saw the voltage at the two wires fluctuate while turning the engine over. I then got my nose down in there better and discovered the single (blk/yel) wire like it shows on the schematic on the back of the injector. I also read 12v when turning the key on. Seeing the power to the solenoid gave me more confidence that my problem was elsewhere, so I moved on. The symptoms on this engine are not that it just idles after the key is off, but this engine seems like it is running ultra rich and revving way up there.

Yes, it is getting a very good fuel/air source from somewhere. I can not rule out that I have installed hoses in the wrong place(s.) Like I said, the jerk mechanic before me left all the lines off of the fuel injection system. I do feel confident that they are correct, if only because they all have the proper bends and look like this is where they go. Thank goodness rubber has memory.

Onward through the fog. I needed a way to test the turbo seal and if nothing else rule it out as the source of fuel. I found this method and I think it proved something. I pulled all CCV tubes from the junction between the air cleaner and the turbo inlet, inspected everything as I pulled each. I made proper plugs for the two pipes on the top of the valve cover. Then I got a bright idea to pull the rubber elbow between the turbo and the intake manifold. With this elbow off, the turbo is still lubricated and spinning, yet no air is drawn through it to the engine. As an added bonus, I found a PVC pipe cap which fit snugly over the end of the elbow to facilitate suffocating the engine if necessary.

With a tinge of trepidation, I was ready to go. I primed the fuel system, installed a new battery, did a double heat with the glow plugs, and turned the engine over. I may need to check the glow plugs because the engine did not fire for several spins. Not even a little sputter, and no smoke from the exhaust. I double checked that fuel was at the injector pump, yes. I tried the starter with a dab of gas pedal, which by the way feels like it does not travel very far. In the back of my mind I wonder if the linkage is installed correctly. It's just a cable which goes directly to the IP. I put the cruise control cable on the same place as the accelerator cable. The throttle arm is against an idle stop, but something seems weird there. I have gone over it again and again since the engine's symptom is over-revving, I can't see what could be wrong, but again this was a basket case when I got it.

Anyway, the engine did begin to fire. I gingerly used the pedal as I didn't want to hear my little baby take off like a rocket again. I would let it sputter at low RPM for ten seconds and shut off the key, just to be sure it would shut off, it did and I felt better by the minute. How the engine sounded? Oscillating, with the rap coming and going with engine speed, maybe? Not sure about the sync there, but the rap wasn't always there anyway. To me, who knows very little about diesel but a great deal about gas engines, this engine was running very rich. In electroics we call it motor- boating. Heck it may be that a little oil remains in the cylinders until the engine gets up to the proper operating temperature. Like my dad says, I don't understand everything I know about this.

The truth is, I never heard a diesel engine sound like this Isuzu sounds. It sounds more like a gasser than any diesel I ever heard. This is one of the reasons I think it is running rich. Either that or this is one tight engine. I didn't let it run very long, I'm afraid to let it runaway again. God only knows what kind of engine wear it is receiving at that RPM. I want this engine to work, I don't want it to blow. I know, I know, you want to know if the freakin' thing shut off with the key or what? A little bit of both, sorry. Once it warmed up (a minute or two) it started going faster like 2000 RPM, I turned off the key. It did stay running, but this time it shut off before I could get out to the engine compartment.

What does this episode tell me? It tells me the turbo indeed may have been part of the problem. It will be worth further testing of the turbo. I will look at the oil blockage scenario, thanks for the tips Jerry.
I feel much better with 2000 RPMs and can work with this. I don't feel like the engine is going to self destruct in my face now. So this in my book, is progress. I will try again.
Brian Rodgers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: OutfitBoss] #744120 08/21/06 02:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,214
J
JLEMOND Offline
Body Damage is Cool
OK HERE IS SOMETHING ELSE TO CHECK AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT THIS LINE IS HOOKED UP CORRECTLY , IF NOT I GUARENTEE IT WILL RUNAWAY, ON TOP ON THE INTAKE ELBOW THERE IS A SMALL 90 DEGREE FITTING WITH A RUBBER LINE ON IT, FOLLOW IT ACROSS THE TOP OF THE ENG IT MUST PLUG ON TO THE TOP OF THE INJ PUMP ON A SMALL NIPPLE THAT IS ON THE DOME OF THE INJ PUMP , IF IT IS PLUGGED ONTO THE FITTING ON THE BACK OF THE PUMP WHERE THERE IS A FUEL RETURN LINE ACTUALL 2 OF THEM, SAME SIZE AS THE MANIFOLD PRESSURE LINE, FROM THE INT TO THE ANEROID ON TOP OF THE PUMP DOUBLE CHECK THOSE LINES , THERE IS A LARGE BANJO FITTING ON THE BACK OF THE PUMP WITH ONE LINE GOING UP TO THE INJ RAIL AND ANOTHER GOING TO A FITTING THAT LEADS BACK TO THE FUEL TANK ,THESE ARE FUEL RETURN LINES , IF ONE OF THESE LINES GETS MIXED WITH THE PRESS LINE . WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE ENG IS FIRST STARTED IT WILL RUN FINE FOR ABOUT 30 SECONDS OR SO AND THEN THE RETURN FUEL INSTEAD OF GOING BACK TO THE TANK GETS PUSHED ACROSS THE TOP OF THE ENG AND RIGHT IN TO THE TOP OF THE INTAKE MANIFOLD PRESSURE PORT AND THEN THE ENG WILL RUNAWAY WITH UNMETERED FUEL ,AND AS THE FUEL IS PUSHED IS PUSHED INTO THE MANIFOLD IT WILL START TO SPEED UP AND AS IT SPEEDS UP MORE FUEL IS SUPPOSSED TO BE RETURN TO THE TANK BUT INSTEAD GOES INTO THE INTAKE, THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON AT ALL CHECK THESE LINES OUT JERRY

C223T Engine run away [Re: JLEMOND] #744121 08/21/06 12:21 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
Good morning Jerry
Okaly dokely, this sounds promising too. "A SMALL 90 DEGREE FITTING WITH A RUBBER LINE ON IT, FOLLOW IT ACROSS THE TOP OF THE ENG IT MUST PLUG ON TO THE TOP OF THE INJ PUMP ON A SMALL NIPPLE THAT IS ON THE DOME OF THE INJ PUMP" Of course I found the end going to the intake because as I had it off when I bypassed the turbo. I turned the elbow a bit so I could get my air starvation device in there. Crap, so the fuel return line may be plugged into the intake manifold? That's not good <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />
I will check it today, thanks. This humbles me a bit. I used to make fun of the client who towed his VW Beetle into the dealership where I worked in NJ. My joke had an ethnic twist because it was New Jersey. Not mean just quirky and ironic, my favorite. Anyway, the customer attempted a tuneup on his 1970s VW. It didn't work out too well for him, but it could have been worse. I mentioned he towed it in right? I popped the rear open to discover he had switched the HT leads and the fuel line! Yep he failed to keep track of the 'little things' during his shade tree tuneup. I always said, ôHey its understandable, the heavy wire coming off the center of the coil looks just like a fuel line.ö Well, this story always proved to me that idiots are protected from above. Had the man not broken off the key in the ignition upon first attempt to start his little beetle, he would have surely blown the piss out of everything. He never even knew what he had done, he just wanted me to fix the key. I have never even seen this one in the movies. Plug the output of the fuel pump into the output of the coil, yeahaw!
I still get a chuckle from this story. I redid his tuneup during my lunch hour and pulled the broken key out made him a new one a sent him on is way. I don't think he ever got it.
Brian Rodgers


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: JLEMOND] #744122 08/21/06 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
C
crossbones Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Hello Brian. A few questions. Did you remove the rubber hose that is between the turbo outlet and the intake manifold inlet (large L shaped hose)? Very close to fuel cut off solenoid (on the rear) is the fuel quanity adjustment screw (looks like a stud with a screw driver slot in the end with a locking nut)........from the factory this adjustment screw had a safety wire through it to maintain the adjustment.........is this safety wire still intact???.............if there is a question about if the safety wire is intact, count the number of exposed threads of the fuel adjustment screw and report back.......


You may have more than one problem causing the run away...........

regards,
crossbones


1982 Luv Diesel 4X2
1982 Luv Diesel 4X4
1981 Luv diesel 4X2
1983 Isuzu Diesel 4X4
1986 Trooper TD
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: crossbones] #744123 08/21/06 05:32 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
Hello you generous and smart people!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
The fuel return line was indeed pouring fuel into the intake manifold! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
At least that's the way it looks to me. I swapped the lines; One from the diaphragm on top of the IP with the the line which crosses the engine and goes to what I think is the evaporative emissions systems. On this engine there are two nipples on the back of the IP and one on top of the IP. One (right side - looking at engine from front) of the lines heads down, I assume back to the tank, the other hose now goes up and over the engine to the left (drivers) side of the engine compartment. I want to write this again just so I can be positive of what I am doing. The steel pipe on top of the injector pump in what looks like a diaphragm housing goes to the steel pipe on the intake manifold right after the rubber 90 degree elbow which goes directly to the turbo air output. This makes a heck of a lot more sense than the way I routed it. So much so, that I reassembled the air ducts to and from the turbo. I haven't tried to start it up yet, but I think I'm ready now.

Yes, Crossbones I did remove the elbow between the turbo and the intake manifold. However, I did not notice an adjuster there. Oh wait, you say it's by the fuel cut-off solenoid. Let me go look now. What does this adjustment do?

I am getting excited and nervous at the same time. So much is riding on whether the engine sounds good or terrible. At this point I guess I will find out if I have a good body for a swap or a running system that only needs minor work and some tweaks. 60/40 excited/scared, maybe 50-50, can't tell. All I know is I feel this light buzz deep down inside. Buzzes are good, right?
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: OutfitBoss] #744124 08/21/06 08:28 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
Yipee!
I got my Trooper running!
It purrs like a kitten too.
Here is what it took to make it not run on its own:
Holy cow, I can't believe it.
No, the extra hose doesn't go across the engine compartment to the fast idle or emissions systems, duh.
The two hoses on the back of the IP are the fuel return circuit. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
One comes from the injectors and the other goes to the fuel tank. I can't believe I didn't snap to this.
The other hose goes to the fast idle diaphragm.
Crap, here comes a thunderstorm, I'll have to finish this after a while.
No knocks, no other weird crap that I can see. I took it for a test drive, saweet.
Happy in New Mexico.

Brian Rodgers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: OutfitBoss] #744125 08/21/06 10:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 354
A
acy76 Offline
Mudrunner
That's great news, Brian. Glad to hear you've got it running.


1988 Isuzu Trooper LS
2.8l Isuzu 4JB1-TC intercooled turbo diesel
www.dieseltrooper.blogspot.com
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: acy76] #744126 08/22/06 12:15 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
I still can't believe it.
I was braced for the worst. Clean livin' keeps payin off.
What's next? I went over everything, inspecting rubber and what-not. The small hose on the turbo possibly the waste gate valve, has a crack, but really that's just about it. Most of the push-on connectors are weak; they don't make good contact and fall off easy. I had no oil pressure showing on the gauges and the engine was missing when I first started it up. It idled rough, so I went on my first exploration while the engine was running since I owned this Trooper. What I found right away was fuel on the firewall. I grabbed a drop light and took a looky see. Fuel was spraying out of the top two injector pipes, which could account for the rough running. I shut off the ignition switch, how nice, this works again. Both connectors were loose, hmmm, I remember tightening them when I reassembled the fuel system. Oh well, no big thing. While I was down there I noticed a push-on connector off, to what appeared to be a block sensor. Maybe I'll get lucky and this will be the cause of the lack of oil pressure reading. I've had success with other connectors like this, but I could get to them to remove the plastic cover to clean and reshape the contact. I faked it, leaving the cover on and got it to fit tighter by using a dentist tool to spread the metal.

When I started the engine the next time it purred to life. I mean smooth, smooth and I had a ¥ reading on the oil pressure gauge.

Clutch pedal feels a little weird. I guess it is the hydraulics. I'm not used to it is all. So, I put her in gear and backed out of the garage. It was in 4X/low to begin with, the transfer case shifter is smooth. First and second gear is all I tried, as I drove down the dirt road to my brother's house. When I got there, about 1/3 mile, I left the engine running, and stepped out with a ***** eating grin on my face. We listened to the motor idle, and talked about some of the things I did this morning. I was pointing to the hoses I switched around. Out in the sunshine with the hood off is where we noticed one more hose by the injection pump. I took a look under the Trooper and saw liquid pouring out by the air cleaner. It was fuel and it was coming from the hose I used to pipe the fuel return. Quickly shutting down the engine, I pulled the hose off and this is when I finally snapped that this was supposed to be returning to the fuel tank. Regroup, and rethink. That's when I saw the proper hose hanging there by the IP. Cool, one more switcheroo and I think we have it this time. Yes!
I drove the Trooper back up the hill and parked it in front of the shop where it has lived for the last month. We love it when they make it back home. Sprayed engine cleaner on the spilled fuel, let it soak for a few minutes, and pulled the garden hose off the biodiesel processor wash tank and hosed my new toy all shinny clean. I reinstalled the hood. My dog is sleeping in the back seat through this thundershower. He looks as happy as a dog can look, almost as happy as I feel.

I need to replace the plastic fan as it has two broken blades. I am sure it needs other things too. For now I will watch and listen to the harmonic balancer. I hope it doesn't come loose again. I have to face the fact that the crank shaft may be damaged. I couldn't get the nut tightened to the 151ft/lbs Jerry said it should be. I was afraid the bolt was going to strip, so I tightened it as much as my ¢ impact wrench would go. So I still have something to worry about. Not a bad place to be. Cautious is good. I will pull the radiator before Winter and re-tighten the bolt.

So there it is. the saga of the little Trooper that could.
Brian Rodgers


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: OutfitBoss] #744127 08/22/06 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
C
crossbones Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Hello Brian. Glad to hear that the truck is now running ok..........First thing is do not run the engine very much with the broken fan as the out of balance can damage the water pump bearing...............

The fuel quanity adjustment screw changes the quanity of fuel per injection...........I have found some that were "played" with to be so far out of adjustment that the engine would not idle down below 2500-3000 rpms..............

regards,
crossbones


1982 Luv Diesel 4X2
1982 Luv Diesel 4X4
1981 Luv diesel 4X2
1983 Isuzu Diesel 4X4
1986 Trooper TD
Re: C223T Engine run away [Re: crossbones] #744128 08/22/06 01:05 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 212
OutfitBoss Offline OP
Wheeler
Hi Crossbones
I did check that adjustment screw and it has the seal still on it. Sorry, in all the excitement I forgot to reply. As thrilled as I am to have it running I can't drive it, because I haven't finished paying for it. The next step is to get out there and make a small pile of cash, send it to the wonderful lady we got the Trooper from and get the title. I'm trying to table my enthusiasm as I don't want to jinx my project nor make this woman uneasy about dropping this Trooper after the mechanic said, "Its Toast." Plus, it is my intention to buy the new parts for the crankshaft from Jerry now that I know the engine sounds good. I mean, a worst case scenario would have been pull the engine replace the crankshaft and the timing gear, hub, etc. Yeah this is cool, but I need to watch for out-of-balance fans and the pulley on the crank too.
Got to make some money right now. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> We put one of the 4X4s in our 'Yard Art' collection back in service while working on the new 4X4 Trooper. Now rolling in a 1984 Chevy Blazer. Its ugly as sin, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> but Blaze runs like nobody's business.
Brian Rodgers


Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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