i'm not going to argue with you, but i will restate, there is a size difference in the links and bushings (possibly not the bolts, but i coulda swore). that's all.
I'm not busting balls (well, kinda, but it's my good nature). In the front, I'd agree some stuff is larger, but we're comparing a double A-arm to a Mac suspension. Even between the GV and Kick, the GV went more massive. The XL7 went to a rear diff nearing 9" ring gear. Wow. Fact is, some of the Zook stuff is bigger, some of the Kia is bigger. Who cares as bushings really don't fail (they wear out) and control arms usually bend due to slamming on stuff, which only heavy DOM can cure.
on the contrary, i like sammy's a whole lot, and trackers some, but, i'm just not too fond of the GV's.
Neither was I. It's gurly, but so is the Kia, and the Rav, and the CRV. But wifey liked it, and that goes a long wat. Mine (read: hers) even has the Limited pac with tinted windows and gold trim. Bling-bling. But as time goes on, I've won a new respect for it. Definately like the all-sodacan V6. And the creature comforts (coming from a stripped rock-rig Sammy) is soooo sweet to retreat to. But what got me was we I was sponsored by
JD's Off-Road in the PA On/Off-Road Rally back in 2003. We were on the Outdoor Channel. At the time, I was running 31" tires, all others with 35" min and up to 44"s. 2 Hummers were also in the running. I thought, "Damn, why did I enter this?". It was April and all the trails were covered in snow. Paragon had close to 2' standing. We started last, but by end of day 2 we were in 4th place. The friggin thing flew thru stuff that bogged and broke Scout IIs. Even the Outdoor Channel guys couldn't believe the "grocery getter" I'll tell ya more someday during the EJS, as I will be out again next year.
I don't thing the GV/Kick is any better or worse than the Kia, quite the opposite, rather on par. Problem is, as you know, PARTS! While the wand doesn't make the magician, ask Harry Potter what a good wand can do.
my whole concern over strength is 2-fold: i don't want to recommend these guys do a swap that ends in breakage away from home
I don't think we have to worry greatly about the strength between the two trannys/t-cases. Many Kicks run 33"s. Several kits are built for 33"s. Even then, it's the axle shafts that become the limiting factor. When the Kick is on Toys with 35-37's, nothing in the tranny/t-case breaks. And if the average Kia owner stays with stock axles, 33"s are pushing the limits, especially for clearance for the rubber.
Besides, what happened to the adage, "Build it, break it, build it better."? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
and second, i want to be certain that if i go to all this expense, this stuff will hold up with my 38.5" SX's. that's all. because i do just fine as is, for the most part, just would like to NEVER have to bump a ledge or pull cable (which is rare anyway) if i can crawl it.
For you, considering what you are currently running, the Volvo to Dana, or double Toy is prolly the way to go. Volvo is nice if you aren't auto already. That's what's going into my Sammy with a OTT Kicker III. God, I love auto in the rocks.
in contrast, you seem to be overly proud of your Zuk stuff. there is a great heritage there, but even today, there aren't that many guys running more than a 35-36" tire with welded or locked diffs, especially on Zuk axles.
you are correct. Yes, I am proud of MY Sammy, mainly because she's more my little girl (her name is Samantha, BTW) since I got her new of the dealer lot (actually had to order it). Someone else's Sammy, its a POS compared to my little gurl. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> But a Daddy is expected to say that.
You are also correct in that most Zookers run up to 33"s locked and geared, and that is with cups/rings added to the CVs. Beyond that, the shafts don't last. Everything else does tho. But to be fair, a Sammy on 33"s has more ground clearance than a CJ D30 on 35"s. And a D30 has the same R&P size (slightly smaller) than a Sammy, and the axle tube weights more than 2x the Zook. The advantage there is just lite and small. Power to weight ratio is not something to look at lightly, especially when you want to play in the rocks. Now with Newfields and 300M this and 4340 that, the Sammy can be built rock solid to a 33-35" tire. Beyond that, in comes Toy truck and FJ axles, or narrow-trac Waggie D44s.
But I got at least $25K into my $10K new Sammy. Is Brembo drilled and zinc'd rotors really necessary for a rock buggy? No, but they look nice while rolling. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
some do, yeah, and most of them don't seem to have too much trouble with breakage, but my point is to be sure. i don't want to be a guinea pig, can't afford it, maybe someone else can, but i can't.
Too bad you weren't closer. I've got access to lots of Kia parts for free or next to dirt. And the pick-n-pull yards in PA can't be beat. Way cheap (motors $65, trannies $50, t-case $35)
the atlas suggestion was for other people, or for me in the far-flung future.
Hey, everyone has limits. They have an Atlas undrive for the sammy, but for that money??? There's always OTT and the boneyard. Besides, part swapping is more fun.
as far as finding something with the 25 splines- working on it.
I hope you do. The easier it becomes, the more might want to try it. Check the Toy stuff, wait, ummm, let me find and post the Vulva (sorry, can't resist that pun) specs, was that 25? Hmmm...
we jawed about the toy/d60 comparison already, the numbers look great, but the real-world doesn't exist on paper.
I agree, but it does exist on the net. (Oh, God, did I really say that?) You on Pirate? Do some searching or ask a few Q's on the Toy & Zook boards about the Toys and the Longs/300M stuff. You might be pleasently surprised to see what they are running and how its holding up. It sold me on the Toy swap for the wifey's GV.
She needs it, as she wheels by Braille. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />
however, even with gearing as low as we're talking, the Sportage is light and probably doesn't need the strength of a 60, so, that could still be a viable option for someone who can afford all the chromo and 300m.
Toys on a Kia/Zook is like adding D60 front/D70 rear on a Grand Cherokee. It's more than adequate, and you CAN break anything, especially and idiot with a skinny pedal. Even on stock Toy axles, under a Kick they are fairly bullet-proof for 33-35" tires, just like a Toy p-up. Of course, again, anything can break. I could't believe my eyes at Paragon when a Sammy, with a 16V 1.6L kick motor, and 6.5:1 t-case gears and 4.10s snapped a D60 stub clean in two. Fixed it, and twisted a Woody driveshaft like a candy cane.
Wow.
tim, you got some things right, so, i'm inclined to second guess some things. i'll go measure up a GV and take a Sportage link with me for a comparison photo, just to be sure.
You'll see what I mean. In fact, I didn't measure the length of the Kick and Kia lower arms. Imagine if they can interchange? Someone might be into longer arms for more flex, bolt-in.
