Not completely. Another option thats getting worked out on the Zook side is the Volvo tranny. Since it's fixed flange, you could now step up to one of many different divorced t-cases, from Zook to Toy, to New Process to Dana.

But with some parts swapping between the Zook, it can marry the Zook stuff to it (ott, etc.) Why the Vulva tranny? Vacuum controlled and no need for the tranny puter. Makes a manual>auto swap MUCH easier.

Personally, I love autos in the rocks. Less pilot input means the pilot can better focus on flying. I used to be "i want manual so i can control yada, yada" but once I went auto, I've been assembling the parts to convert my Sammy to auto.



Unfortunately, this I don't see happening, as the trannys are completely different, with Kia being Getrag and Zook being AISIN. But some options are better than none. The Volvo may hold promise for you as wiring in a electronically controlled 4spd is taxing to say the least, volvo is almost plug-n-play.

The cohesive thread is the AW tranny. That holds the most promise of getting viable t-case options and alike into this platform.

ok, one problem.....

the Kia input on the t-case is 25 spline.....

still looking.

OTT can machine the Kia or Zook input to match if that's a problem.

Or swap the tranny to Zook and run OTT into a t-case of choice.

yeah, but with all that extra gearing, do we really want to lower the spline count? i know it's only lowering it 4 splines, but that's a lot of strength. also, the Kia input to the t-case is just a hair under 1.125" in diameter, is the Zuk smaller? the volvo is 23 spline, but no measurement on the diameter. also, with hacking out a new input or output or coupler, there comes a new, and probably large, extra cost into the mix, one that most of us can't really afford, even if we can fork over the cash for the OTT adapter(s).

looking at all the options, i'm thinking that, so far, the best choice, if we can't find a version of t-case that already has a 25-pline input and mates up to one of the available adapters for this tranny, is to swap to the volvo tranny and use the OTT adapter for the toyota case and either just run the Marlin Crawler low gears or a dual toy case. that will just about double what i have right now, with stock gears in the dual toy cases, and offer a total of 9 forward gears and 3 reverse gears in 4x4 mode, since OD won't work in 4x4 mode.

i'm still searching for more info, so, i will get back here and put up whatever i find.

one note: with the d300 adapter, one can run an Atlas.... hmmmmm.......

Somehow, I get the feeling you really don't like Zooks, do you? Everytime you get a chance, you try to point out, usually incorrectly, that Kia is bigger/stronger than Zook. Last night, with 10 mins and a digi caliper, I found your statements about bolt, bushing and control arm sizes to be 180* opposite than what you say.

If this was a concern, Sidekick t-cases would be exploding left and right with the 4.24:1 and 6.1:1 gear sets. The tranny would be twisting shafts under the 2.7L V6. But they don't (great JAPANESE engineering). I've taken my GV over Lower Hell, Poison Spider, Golden Spike, Moab Rim and many others, with a 4.24 t-case gear set in to 7.5" Zook 5.12 R&Ps and 33"s. Over that last 7 year with the GV, have I broke axle shafts? Yes. Have I bent the T-case/Tranny mount? Sure. Has anyone I've ever met or wheeled with someone who broke input/output shafts on a Sidekick tranny or t-case? Never.

The issue is not nor will be the strength of using any Zook Tranny/t-case. This is being used now, has been used, and will continue with great success. The issue will be, especially if the swap is made and t-case gears go in, will the Kia axles survive? Under 33"s, locked? Maybe, maybe not. If not, custom 4340 or 300M shafts *could* be made, or a swap to solid axles could be done.

After checking, the rear Sport frame is just over 40". The IFS Toy rear is just over 43". So a rear Toy axle, which has the same axle diameter and spline count as a D44, could go under very easily. For the front, the frame is 28", which is much narrower than the Zook, so a Toy solid axle with IFS outters would fit no problem. With Longfield axles, the Toy is stronger than a D60, lighter and with way better ground clearance.



OTT charges $60CDN an hour for shop labor. Cheap by most machinist standard.

You should know more than most, rockcrawling or extreme 4x4 ing (which what we are talking about constitutes) is not a cheap sport any any stretch. If you wanna play, you gotta play. Even if many of the folks on this board are poor as you suggest, that doesn't mean everyone is and maybe some might want to experiment and take the Kia to another level.

Hey, it's better than spending money on crack or meth. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />



Now you're talking! How low is too low? No such thing. LOL If your are serious, I'll put you in touch with my friend who's taking on the whole Volvo thingy. He's the one that is the AW "expert" and told me the Kia and Kick trannies are essentially the same. Don't forget, Toys had this tranny, as did several other makes/models. The right spline might be out there.



Atlas? You do like to spend money, eh?

i'm not going to argue with you, but i will restate, there is a size difference in the links and bushings (possibly not the bolts, but i coulda swore). that's all.

on the contrary, i like sammy's a whole lot, and trackers some, but, i'm just not too fond of the GV's.

my whole concern over strength is 2-fold: i don't want to recommend these guys do a swap that ends in breakage away from home and second, i want to be certain that if i go to all this expense, this stuff will hold up with my 38.5" SX's. that's all. because i do just fine as is, for the most part, just would like to NEVER have to bump a ledge or pull cable (which is rare anyway) if i can crawl it.

in contrast, you seem to be overly proud of your Zuk stuff. there is a great heritage there, but even today, there aren't that many guys running more than a 35-36" tire with welded or locked diffs, especially on Zuk axles. some do, yeah, and most of them don't seem to have too much trouble with breakage, but my point is to be sure. i don't want to be a guinea pig, can't afford it, maybe someone else can, but i can't.

the atlas suggestion was for other people, or for me in the far-flung future.

as far as finding something with the 25 splines- working on it.

we jawed about the toy/d60 comparison already, the numbers look great, but the real-world doesn't exist on paper. however, even with gearing as low as we're talking, the Sportage is light and probably doesn't need the strength of a 60, so, that could still be a viable option for someone who can afford all the chromo and 300m. well, and the axles themselves, which are not as plentiful in some parts of the country as you say they are in your neck of the woods. like TX, for instance, not all that popular and gone from the boneyard in a matter of HOURS, seriously.

i'm already thinking that if i do go as low as i want to at around 147:1 crawl ratio with a stock toy case in front of a 4.7 case, my 44 shafts will be history with my 38's.

wondering if 60's are in my future....

truth is, i'd prolly be happy with just one toy case and 4.7's or just 2 stock toy cases.

anything lower than 1.98:1 is a plus with me.

still looking.

tim, you got some things right, so, i'm inclined to second guess some things. i'll go measure up a GV and take a Sportage link with me for a comparison photo, just to be sure.

I'm not busting balls (well, kinda, but it's my good nature). In the front, I'd agree some stuff is larger, but we're comparing a double A-arm to a Mac suspension. Even between the GV and Kick, the GV went more massive. The XL7 went to a rear diff nearing 9" ring gear. Wow. Fact is, some of the Zook stuff is bigger, some of the Kia is bigger. Who cares as bushings really don't fail (they wear out) and control arms usually bend due to slamming on stuff, which only heavy DOM can cure.



Neither was I. It's gurly, but so is the Kia, and the Rav, and the CRV. But wifey liked it, and that goes a long wat. Mine (read: hers) even has the Limited pac with tinted windows and gold trim. Bling-bling. But as time goes on, I've won a new respect for it. Definately like the all-sodacan V6. And the creature comforts (coming from a stripped rock-rig Sammy) is soooo sweet to retreat to. But what got me was we I was sponsored by JD's Off-Road in the PA On/Off-Road Rally back in 2003. We were on the Outdoor Channel. At the time, I was running 31" tires, all others with 35" min and up to 44"s. 2 Hummers were also in the running. I thought, "Damn, why did I enter this?". It was April and all the trails were covered in snow. Paragon had close to 2' standing. We started last, but by end of day 2 we were in 4th place. The friggin thing flew thru stuff that bogged and broke Scout IIs. Even the Outdoor Channel guys couldn't believe the "grocery getter" I'll tell ya more someday during the EJS, as I will be out again next year.

I don't thing the GV/Kick is any better or worse than the Kia, quite the opposite, rather on par. Problem is, as you know, PARTS! While the wand doesn't make the magician, ask Harry Potter what a good wand can do.



I don't think we have to worry greatly about the strength between the two trannys/t-cases. Many Kicks run 33"s. Several kits are built for 33"s. Even then, it's the axle shafts that become the limiting factor. When the Kick is on Toys with 35-37's, nothing in the tranny/t-case breaks. And if the average Kia owner stays with stock axles, 33"s are pushing the limits, especially for clearance for the rubber.

Besides, what happened to the adage, "Build it, break it, build it better."? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



For you, considering what you are currently running, the Volvo to Dana, or double Toy is prolly the way to go. Volvo is nice if you aren't auto already. That's what's going into my Sammy with a OTT Kicker III. God, I love auto in the rocks.



you are correct. Yes, I am proud of MY Sammy, mainly because she's more my little girl (her name is Samantha, BTW) since I got her new of the dealer lot (actually had to order it). Someone else's Sammy, its a POS compared to my little gurl. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> But a Daddy is expected to say that.

You are also correct in that most Zookers run up to 33"s locked and geared, and that is with cups/rings added to the CVs. Beyond that, the shafts don't last. Everything else does tho. But to be fair, a Sammy on 33"s has more ground clearance than a CJ D30 on 35"s. And a D30 has the same R&P size (slightly smaller) than a Sammy, and the axle tube weights more than 2x the Zook. The advantage there is just lite and small. Power to weight ratio is not something to look at lightly, especially when you want to play in the rocks. Now with Newfields and 300M this and 4340 that, the Sammy can be built rock solid to a 33-35" tire. Beyond that, in comes Toy truck and FJ axles, or narrow-trac Waggie D44s.

But I got at least $25K into my $10K new Sammy. Is Brembo drilled and zinc'd rotors really necessary for a rock buggy? No, but they look nice while rolling. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />



Too bad you weren't closer. I've got access to lots of Kia parts for free or next to dirt. And the pick-n-pull yards in PA can't be beat. Way cheap (motors $65, trannies $50, t-case $35)

Hey, everyone has limits. They have an Atlas undrive for the sammy, but for that money??? There's always OTT and the boneyard. Besides, part swapping is more fun.

I hope you do. The easier it becomes, the more might want to try it. Check the Toy stuff, wait, ummm, let me find and post the Vulva (sorry, can't resist that pun) specs, was that 25? Hmmm...



I agree, but it does exist on the net. (Oh, God, did I really say that?) You on Pirate? Do some searching or ask a few Q's on the Toy & Zook boards about the Toys and the Longs/300M stuff. You might be pleasently surprised to see what they are running and how its holding up. It sold me on the Toy swap for the wifey's GV.

She needs it, as she wheels by Braille. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />



Toys on a Kia/Zook is like adding D60 front/D70 rear on a Grand Cherokee. It's more than adequate, and you CAN break anything, especially and idiot with a skinny pedal. Even on stock Toy axles, under a Kick they are fairly bullet-proof for 33-35" tires, just like a Toy p-up. Of course, again, anything can break. I could't believe my eyes at Paragon when a Sammy, with a 16V 1.6L kick motor, and 6.5:1 t-case gears and 4.10s snapped a D60 stub clean in two. Fixed it, and twisted a Woody driveshaft like a candy cane.

Wow.



You'll see what I mean. In fact, I didn't measure the length of the Kick and Kia lower arms. Imagine if they can interchange? Someone might be into longer arms for more flex, bolt-in.

Wow, thats better, we can get along. Ok, I must apologize, you found a lot of info in a short amount of time you just came over a bit strong. I have a standard trans so so far I am still in the same boat. I would'nt trade mine for an auto but if you find any Zuk parts (mainly lower xcase gears)that will work with a manual I'm all ears. You can't put the 1st gen Sportage in the same catigory as the Rav4s, CRVs, or any other wan-a-be SUV without a low range. A stock Sportage may a little Gurly but they are still built stout.
Dennis

That's cool. As I mentioned to Dave, the problem with the written word is it loses the inflection of the spoken form. One can't tell, without liberal usage of emoticons, if a poke is made with malice or not.

I happen to have a STRONG sense of humor, albeit very sarcastic.

I routinely refer to all my rides (excep Samantha) as my "little shiiters". I don't even put myself above the fray.

Now, onto the tranny. Shannon made good. The t-case is Borg-Werner, not Getrag. The Kia embossing is just there for Kia, but Kia outsources almost everything (like many automakers). She'll be getting the specs on the t-case like model and cross-references.

As for the girlie-grocery getter comment, take it lightly, the Zooks are in the same boat. If Kia didn't make so many commercials with women, it might not look that way. The zook commercials have guys now, but the commercials are still way gay. I mean, the chick rides the crusier bike and races her "man" driving a 4dr soccer momobile?

Laff at it instead. Here's a funny (at least to me), when last in Moab, we were on Lower Helldorado (not easy in a IFS by any means), lots of on-lookers as word got out that a N'Yorka had a grocery getter on the rocks. This attracted more onlookers, and a lot of Jeeper heckles. When it hit critical mass, and the GV was in a hairy spot, I rolled down the tinted window and asked, "I'm sorry, I'm not from these parts, but is the short cut to City Market (the Moab supermarket). Folks fell apart laughing. From then on, I was rooted and cheered as I made it thru, in one piece.

If ever in Moab, and asked if you want to run thru Hell, politely decline if you like your body panels.

*******edit************************************************

just back from checking pirate, this is from "samiguy":



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original post:

yes, tim, i'm on pirate most of every work day. i spend hours upon hours perusing the tech articles and gen 4x4 tech, as well as toyota, zuk, ford, land use and sale and vendor forums..... yeah, right, i just go to chit chat for the naked pics! kidding, but i do spend time researching stuff over there, in fact, as soon as i found the 2 pics of the trannies, i went over there to ask what they knew and got a little bit of info, but still looking for more. i have contacted allpro because marlin's e-mail is not working, but i haven't gotten much further than that yet.

ps- you're on pirate too......

i'm gonna keep looking for more info, because, to be honest, i'm hoping there is something out there for 25 splines. i think i can probably settle for the 23 spline volvo, with the 23 spline dual toy cases and OTT and marlin adapters. all that is still going to come close to 2 grand, probably, with the price of both t-cases and the tranny, as the adpaters alone will be at least a grand, themselves. 4.7's will have to wait. allpro also has a 5.7 for the toy case, just nuts. either way, have to rebuild d-shafts again, for like the 5th time, need some toy parts, etc. just talking, but when i find something, i'll let you guys know, and if i don't, i'll be looking for one of those volvo trannies soon....

oh, tim, those PNP prices are outrageously low. t-cases around here go for 150, motors-150 for a 4 cyl.! not sure about trannies, but i will be looking next time i'm out there, still need new (to me) seats....