>>>*I watched this thread for awhile, I can't help myself, so I have a comment or two.

It always pays to shop around a bit. Prices do vary, most suppliers are on "programmed" systems that have builtin steps of profit, as many as 10 to 20 levels, even more.

Like when I ran a NAPA store, this was known as "convenience." A nice programmed system, and we paid NAPA for the convenience.

The final price may well be simply the result of how MANY steps. Some of us actually ARE "distributors" and thus eliminate many middlemen.

The Nation of America works on middlemen, those who get in the flow of the money. This can be done by "owning" a regional or local supply system by contract.

So no matter who you purchase from, they all deal with the system. Very few are pure distributors, which simply means no...(or few) middlemen. Very few.

So most of us, should we need an item, will go to a parts store or regional discount outlet, also a retailer.

Suppliers working at the true wholesale level are rare, we do little if any advertising, and volumes are low in the scheme of things. If volumes get to be too high it affects marketing, then shoes attached to very large feet come down.

Small suppliers like us know our place and don't challenge the status quo most deal with. In my case, I invested 40 years in relationships to get to my purchase level, most can't do that.

Of course there must be a profit, the company that advertises the most will likely need the highest profit percentage.

A shop tech might get 45% of labor billed, a typical shop is now over $100 per hour. Employee costs, (benefits, related taxes, adds another 20%) Most dealerships are based on a flat rate manual, my experience is this does give adequate time for an experienced tech. A good tech should have no problem billing 10-12 hours in a typical 8 hour day, some with lessor skills might struggle to bill 5-6 hours.

The system is becoming a bit like lawyers in that respect. The attorney bills $250/hour, but his secretary pushes a button on a computer and prints out a form, 2 minutes.

That is still a 2 hour billing, the cost for the attorney to type up the form.

I see the "mechanic" becoming a thing of the past. There are less left every day, the ones who bill by actual hours worked.

Add in government that for some odd reason is just now finding a nearly completely unregulated industry, and vehicle repairs will continue to climb in cost. Government wants their share of everything, look at your phone bill to understand.

I remember running an ad, "Valve grinding..$7.50 each head" as our world was all V-8's with a rare inline six. Those from 1973.

Since we are moving, we were sorting out old paperwork. I found invoices from 1980, "Valve Job..$36.00"..really, for V-6, V8 engines....1990, "Valve job, $39.00."...2000.."Valve job, $79.75." I remember that last ad, I wrote it.

I think my son charges $150 for a set of V-8's today, we have competitors still advertising $79.00 pair...*About what it costs to properly clean and mag test a set of cast iron V-8's. The shop costs $60.00 per hour to keep the doors open in today's world, in my own case I have around 2.8 MILLION dollars invested in property and tooling over a 40 year period.

Tax breaks, I guess.

To do a valve job properly on a 3VZE V-6 is about 5 hours shop time, thus $500.00. Plus any needed parts, this is IF the machine shop intends to stay in business.

I looked at the initial quote on this one, I thought it was just fine and reasonable.

The term "MSRP" is exactly that, and has nothing at all to do with actual charges or even costs associated. In other words, meaningless.

The important thing is to ask first, and don't be afraid to negotiate. Often it is possible to save a lot doing this.

This from an old man who sells online and averages 11% overall. 11% isn't much, but we supply over 2 mil per year now, the fact is we can survive nicely on $220K gross profit per year. That is growing, not considering the wife's accident, a bit of a setback.

Note payrolls, taxes, all of that hits us just like it does the rest of you, so 2M sales means we do as well as most well paid janitors at the local school district. In fact, they do a tad better considering the benefits package.

I should become a janitor, but the truth is I LIKE to try and help people, maybe even save them money, it's rewarding.

There is no substitute for making someone pleased with their purchase.

Which is OK, and enough, we are doing fine. But like all the rest of you good folks, we count dollars too.

I still have to say the bid the gentleman mentioned was not out of line.

Remember to get a bid, if you don''t like the price, ask around. Sometimes but not always, the part in the box is exactly the same between suppliers, so logic says we all check on that, too. If the price is WAY too cheap, get suspicious. Note the average dealership MUST work on 300%, a simple fact of life. Interest and all those cars on the lot are financed costs.

Sometimes the tech is hungry, and will offer a deal.

Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't hurt to ask.

I just look around, and I see the industry I have spent a lifetime in being left behind. Yes, modern vehicles are complicated, much more so than the Doctor you will pay a far higher price to heal your body.

Just some thoughts, I have been in this business for 45 years. I can't complain too much, having done well.

To close, I say that the cost to repair your vehicle may sound high, just think in terms of dollars per mile instead...It might come out to be cheap.....*EB

The Top 3 Crimes

#1 Car repair estimates are designed to hide the true charges for your repairs

#2 Part prices are frequently billed higher than MSRP. Both OEM and aftermarket parts

#3 Labor costs are grossly exaggerated. $100 per hour can equal $150, despite the posted shop labor rate

DID YOU KNOW: government data, multiple studies, undercover sting operations, and consumer advocate groups reveal that[color:"red"] 98% of all car repair customers pay too much for auto repair. [/color]

and I do not believe dishonesty runs "rampant" in this industry....*Been around too long, I happen to know better....*EB

BBB LISTS TOP 20 IN OREGON AND SOUTHWEST WASHINGTON

Consumers are encouraged to investigate before they invest!

Portland, OR û August 5, 2003 û The Better Business Bureau issued the top 20 complained about industries and any unsatisfactory businesses within them.

The BBB offers free Reliability Reports on business available online and by phone so consumers can check out a company before they buy. ôWith over 700,000 reports requested in 2002, itÆs exciting to see so many consumers investigating before they invest.ö Said Robert W.G. Andrew, Better Business Bureau President/CEO.

For a business to have an unsatisfactory record with the Better Business Bureau, they must have a pattern of unanswered complaints.

COMPLAINTS AND UNSATISFACTORY BUSINESSES

11. Auto Repair - Mechanical
Race Central û Portland, OR
Pacific West Import û Portland, OR
ATC Mobil Diagnostic & Repair û Gresham, OR
Rapid Fire Engine Supply Inc û Portland, OR [color:"red"] well-well, there's another one of my bad experiences. Funny how I was right about them. I wasn't the one that complained to the BBB[/color]
Mike's Engine Rebuilders û Portland, OR
A 1 Discount Auto Repair û Eugene, OR
Four Seasons Auto Centers û Eugene, OR

It's not like I spent an enormous time to "look you up" your phone number and the internet told me in seconds. I know to stay away from your shop. You justify everything. The last thing I want is a shop to argue with me and laugh at me such as you did. Whatever happened to, "the customer is always right" It's you guys that think they are indispensable and they are doing the customer a favor. Believe me, you need us more than we need you and you just lost a potential customer as well as the many people that I know that may be in need of your services.

________________________________________________________

>>>*Good grief..I didn't laugh at you, I said get a quote, shop FIRST not afterwards...If you agree to the quote, it's NOT an overcharge.

Somehow that makes better sense than having a shop start on a job, then start hollering about some other shop and what they charge???...Your mistake is easy to see, you didn't shop around FIRST, and when you did shop around you found lower prices. There are ALWAYS lower prices somewhere.

I say go shop if that is the goal.

Then from that you degenerate into my explanation costing me business? I somehow don't see how my opinion could possible cost me business but if it does, oh well.

I'm not going to change anything, we actually do pretty well and we happen to HAVE a reputation for being fair. Yep, there are suppliers that do charge less, fine with me.

Oh well...I give up...*Bit like being in a shin kicking contest with a guy with a wooden leg.....*EB