I agree but lets admit, during many previous wars/conflicts the enemy has been very hard to distinguish. That goes for other wars fought under predidents from both parties. Only in a perfect was will we send our troops in against a completely uniformed military.



I assume your little winking smilie is an indication of your distaste of this was and possibly your belief that this is an illegal war. If this is correct then I am going to take my own post off topic. I would like for everyone who has a beef with this current administration to post what they have a problem with. Be specific and if possible give a CREDIBLE source that is not based on pure speculation. To be honest I plan on dissecting every response and researching whether or not they are "fact or fiction." If what I find agrees with the response I will say as much, if I find reliable evidence to the contrary I will post my findings. Beware, this requires both sides putting aside their pride and admitting, when appropriate, that they are wrong. If I get enough responses I will post another topic or someone else can. I have already started doing research of the Constitution, case law, Supreme Court interpretations, etc. So, let's discuss this and see what is fact and what is fiction.

Carlos

Jee-Whiz Carlos some of us have been posting distaste with links for quite a while now. I'm spent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I really do try to look at things unbiased and I thought Saddam needed to be taken out but blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Just use the search function I'm sure I've said all this before. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

You're right. I will use the search function and wait for it to freeze up my computer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I am doing this more for myself to see if the staunch support I have given him over the years is justified. I'll just put a new topic once I have done all my research. I'm sure you can figure out that there is a lot out there to look at.

Carlos

I hear many folks give Bush and this administration credit for having the balls to go in and kick some ass. That would be great if they actually had something to lose and not everything to gain by this war. As long as there is war they are making money. The worst conflict of interest in history.

I'm sure Bush is darn fine angler. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure Cheney has something good about him too but I admitally disagree with violating the Constitution for the purpose of empowering the executive branch.

If you're referring to bretwalda's post about Constitutional deconstruction I have not researched that yet. However, it is on the list. May have a thesis by the time I am finished.

Carlos

Bretwalda posts some good information but I actually just read what this administration does from the White House website. You dont have to get your news from the fly by night leftists to know what they are up to. Most folks need the media to form an opinion for them...I dont. I can just read the facts and see the errors without having some hairy legged chick tell me Bush is evil or some right wing glutton to tell me Bush id just looking out for us. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

define 'bush'... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I agree, troops shouldn't be held responsible for their actions against civilian populations when in enemy territory. Negligent killing should be expected since they are is stressful situtaions without a well identified enemy, and has always occurred durring wartime. civillians have been killed in all wars either by accident or on purpose, it is just a part of war.

I don't agree with your reasoning behind why you think it isn't their fault though. As far as this being illegal or that Bush has taken/created powers he didn't have a right to, everything he has done has been authorized by the Constitution and Congress, even the wire tapping is authorized. If anyone is to blame it is Congress, but then again Congress has always been willing to give up its powers to reduce political fallout if things go badly.

They have a lot at stake, Bush's legacy as president is the most important thing he has risked here. He has bet his presidential farm on democracy in the ME, no democracy, he will be seen as an utter failure with the likes of Carter and Clinton, however if democracy takes hold in teh ME he will be in teh category of Lincoln, FDR, and Reagan.

Making money from war is nothing new, every war in history has been about taking wealth or protecting wealth in some way or another. Corporations have always profited from wars, and so ahev the peopel they employed, both Dems and Reps. However believing that going to war in Iraq was only to make money doesn't make any sense at all. Saudi Arabia would have been a much larger financial payoff than Iraq does, and wouldn't have needed WMD's to do it, the simple fact that the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals would have been justification enough. All we would have had to do is claim they were Saudi military and attacked to protect our sovereignty. Invading Venezuala would have been more profitable than Iraq, less in military expenditures, no interference from neihboring states, and a large amount of oil deposits. Yes understand that Bush has changed the reasoning from WMD's to democracy, but it isn't his fault, it is the fault of the American people. For some reason it is believed that the American people need to be sold on something before they will support it, and the simpler the reason the easier the sale. WMD's and an immenant threat were just the easiest things to sell and exactly what the people wanted to here. There was proof Sadam had used them in the past, and we did recover remnants. The only speculation there is is whether or not Sadam had destroyed them(unlikely), or moved the to neighboring states, or simply buried them, both more likely. American didn't support war in Europe until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and for the most part Americans didn't care about global terrorism until 9/11. In both cases it was something that didn't involve the U.S. directly, we were isolated from it, and as in both cases we were proven wrong.

I will never think Bushs reputation is worth almost four thousand American lives. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> F-ing! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> Thats dictator mentality and it has to stop. So now we are there to protect our masters legacy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> Thats not even F-ing funny. Soldiers die for there country NOT ther president.

Not true. We have been involved in the middle east for many decades before 911. I cant believe we just act like we were minding our own business. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> We all need to read up on our involvement before we even talk about this. To claim that we were isolationists and thats why we were attacked is proposterous. We have armed both sides of conflicts Iran/Iraq, made deals that we have not honored, armed Israel, We removed the democratic elected president of Iran and intalled the Shaw. They took their country back by supporting the Ayahtolah Mousavi Khomeini so we made them all out to be a terrorist state when they were in fact already practicing democracy.


Here is the deal. Palestine has a right to exist the same as Israel if not more because they were there first(study pre 1500 history). We should have never supported the Israeli agenda by arming them with tanks,choppers,fighter jets ETC. Israel has children signing bombs, they blow up city blocks to get to one man. They have been occupying Lebanon and get rocks thrown at them for it. Sometimes a rocket (not missle) gets launched towards Israel but there has been no severe damage by Hezbollah. Now they are labeled terrorists because they cant guide the rocket? They are defending Lebanon. The real terrorists are the ones with all the power and still kill for more.......remember that.




Side note. My oldest brother was in Lebanon during the 80s when the American Embassy was blown up. He was shot at getting off the plane so they headed to the Embassy. When they got near the Embassy they could not go any closer so they hid under a dumpster for five hours. They decided to go to the German Embassy and got flown out of Lebanon and on to Germany. Even after all that BS my brother and his partner (US envoy) undertood the struggle of the Lebanese.


Would you want the guy arming your enemy living in your house?
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.