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Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: cmonty72] #841413 10/27/07 05:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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cmonty72 Offline
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Quote



*

1917-1947



The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .

All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain turned the problem over to the United Nations.

See also the study: The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem Part I

The map collection
The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

1947-1977


After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half of the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. The General Assembly conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices.

See also the study: The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem Part II

The map collection
The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

1977-1990
Events on the ground, however, remained on a negative course. In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon with the declared intention to eliminate the PLO. A cease-fire was arranged. PLO troops withdrew from Beirut and were transferred to neighboring countries after guarantees of safety were provided for thousands of Palestinian refugees left behind. Subsequently, a large-scale massacre of refugees took place in the camps of Sabra and Shatila.

In September 1983, the International Conference on the Question of Palestine, which was widely attended, adopted inter alia the Geneva Declaration containing the following principles: the need to oppose and reject the establishment of settlements in the occupied territory and actions taken by Israel to change the status of Jerusalem, the right of all States in the region to existence within secure and internationally recognized boundaries, with justice and security for all the people, and the attainment of the legitimate, inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.

In December 1987, a mass uprising against the Israeli occupation began in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (the intifada). Methods used by the Israeli forces during the uprising resulted in mass injuries and heavy loss of life among the civilian Palestinian population.

See also the study: The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem Part III Part IV

The map collection
The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

The Peace Process
A Peace Conference on the Middle East was convened in Madrid on 30 October 1991, with the aim of achieving a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement through direct negotiations along 2 tracks: between Israel and the Arab States, and between Israel and the Palestinians, based on Security Council resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973) (the "land for peace" formula). A series of subsequent negotiations culminated in the mutual recognition between the Government of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian People, and the signing by the two parties of the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements in Washington on 13 September 1993, as well as the subsequent implementation agreements, which led to several other positive developments, such as the partial withdrawal of Israeli forces, the elections to the Palestinian Council and the Presidency of the Palestinian Authority, the partial release of prisoners and the establishment of a functioning administration in the areas under Palestinian self-rule. The involvement of the United Nations has been essential to the peace process, both as the guardian of international legitimacy and in the mobilization and provision of international assistance. In 2000 and 2001, Israelis and Palestinians held talks on a final status agreement, which proved inconclusive.

See also: The map collection
The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

2000 -
The controversial visit by Ariel Sharon of the Likud to Al-Haram Al-Sharif (Temple Mount) in 2000 was followed by the outbreak of the second intifada. A massive loss of life, the reoccupation of territories under Palestinian self-rule, military incursions, extrajudicial killings of suspected Palestinian militants, suicide attacks, rocket and mortar fire, and the destruction of property characterized the situation on the ground. Israel began the construction of a West Bank separation wall, located within the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which was ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. In 2002, the Security Council adopted resolution 1397 affirming a vision of two States, Israel and Palestine, living side by side within secure and recognized borders. In 2003, the Middle East Quartet (US, EU, Russia, and the UN) released a detailed Road Map to a two-State solution, endorsed by Security Council resolution 1515. In 2005, Israel withdrew its settlers and troops from the Gaza Strip as part of its ôDisengagement Plan,ö while retaining effective control over its borders, seashore, and airspace. Following the Palestinian Legislative Council elections of 2006, the Quartet concluded that future assistance to the Palestinian Authority would be reviewed by donors against the new GovernmentÆs commitment to non-violence, recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements.




* Based on United Nations documents and sources

Quote
May 14, 1948, Israel declared its independence. The new country's victory in the subsequent Arab-Israeli War expanded the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars and decades of violence.

Last edited by cmonty72; 10/27/07 09:10 PM.

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Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: cmonty72] #841414 10/28/07 09:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,568
Snowtoy Offline
Roll Me Over
Quote
I will never think Bushs reputation is worth almost four thousand American lives. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> F-ing! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> Thats dictator mentality and it has to stop. So now we are there to protect our masters legacy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> Thats not even F-ing funny. Soldiers die for there country NOT ther president.


You misunderstood what I stated. You said Bush had nothing to lose by invading Iraq and everything to gain financially. I pointed out that his legacy as President is what he was risking by invading Iraq. You want to believe that it was all about money because that is what it appears to be today w/Haliburton, when in reality you have no evidence showing that WMD's weren't the real reason in the beginning. No one not even France spoke up to say that WMD's weren't in Iraq, everyone was under the impression that Sadam had them at his disposal, and WMD casing and residual chemical were actually found. The believed arsenal wasn't found but that doesn't mean they weren't in existance, Sadam had plenty of time to move them out of the country or simply burry them in the desert

Quote

Quote
In both cases it was something that didn't involve the U.S. directly
Not true. We have been involved in the middle east for many decades before 911. I cant believe we just act like we were minding our own business. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> We all need to read up on our involvement before we even talk about this. To claim that we were isolationists and thats why we were attacked is proposterous. We have armed both sides of conflicts Iran/Iraq, made deals that we have not honored, armed Israel, We removed the democratic elected president of Iran and intalled the Shaw. They took their country back by supporting the Ayahtolah Mousavi Khomeini so we made them all out to be a terrorist state when they were in fact already practicing democracy.


Again another misunderstanding. I said that Americans didn't care about the war in Europe, nor the terrorists in the ME and acts around the world because it didn't effect us here at home. Americans didn't really care about the U.S.S. Cole, the embassy bombings, or about U.S. citizens being murdered outside the country simply because they were Americans. As long as we stayed here or traveled to Europe we were safe, it wasn't until 9/11 that terrorism hit home and needed an actual U.S. response. Had 9/11 not occured there would have been no invasion of Iraq, Sadam would likely still be in power, and only U.S. installations outside the U.S. would have been targets of islamic terrorism.

Quote
Not true. We have been involved in the middle east for many decades before 911. I cant believe we just act like we were minding our own business. We all need to read up on our involvement before we even talk about this. To claim that we were isolationists and thats why we were attacked is proposterous. We have armed both sides of conflicts Iran/Iraq, made deals that we have not honored, armed Israel.

Yes we have supported both sides of a conflicts, i.e. our enemy's enemy is our friend, this is practiced by governemenst all over the world, and works well. Europeans and colonists used the concept here with the American Indians. France used it to support us in our bid for freedom from England. Hitler tried using it to get Mexico to attack us durring WWII, and Nixon used it to seperate the U.S.S.R and China durring teh cold War. This is a long practiced and accepted foriegn policy, and no one should be surprised. Right now in Iraq we are using it with Iraqi national insurgent groups to fight the foreign born insurgents and Al Queda. There is nothing wrong with it.

Quote
We removed the democratic elected president of Iran and intalled the Shaw. They took their country back by supporting the Ayahtolah Mousavi Khomeini so we made them all out to be a terrorist state when they were in fact already practicing democracy.


Again not exactly the way it happened. In 1951 Mosaddeq (a socialist) was elected Prime Minister, which he then immediately nationalized Iran's oil industry, an oil industry that British Petroleum had created. Of course this didn't sit well with BP, as it shouldn't have. He also enacted policies that attempted to strip the power of the monarchy. Mosaddeq's forces did force Shah Reza out in 1953, however his failed socialist and nationalization policies, allong w/the growing communist party Tudeh causing problems with his clergy allies, and the British economic embargo made the coup to reinstate Shah Reza rather easy to pull off. The reinstatement of Shah Reza led to new oil contarcts that feuled Iran's economic growth for the next 25yrs. Shah reza also enacted social/political reforms that would become to be known as the "White Revolution". The "White Revolution" basically began in '61 and started with land reform which redistributed land to 2.5 milion Iranians in 1963. Along with land reform the Shah reduced the autonomy of tribal groups, established education and health corps to benefot Iran's rural population, advanced social and legal reforms that furthered the emancipation of women, and limited profit sharing from industrial/agriculture industries. This all lead to Iran's economic boom and greatly increased the per capita income of Iranians, which came ytp an end in 1979. Granted the Shah wasn't a humanitarian, and he did squelch political dissedents, had his own version of the KGB called the Organization of National Security and Information , which the Shah used to polityically dominate Iran. However, the uprising in '79 was brought on more by the effected parties of the land reform(the landed elite), the loss of tribal power(clergy), and failed or corrupt programs that effected portions of the Iranian population, than teh Shah's support by the West. the Shah was criticizd for trying to immitate the West and for being subserviant to the West, but not enough to cause his downfall. Also prior to '79 Revolution Iran had more students attending U,S, universities than any other state. It is pretty clear given the reforms enacted under Shah Reza and his like of the West would have given Iran its best chance at already becomming a real democracy. However after the '79 revolt Khomeini did away with most of the reform policies womens rights, reinstated traditional religeous law, and did away with his allies who helped him gain power(nothing new it is part of the revolutionists handbook, get the weaker parties to help, then destroy them since they are now your enemies). The CIA's and British backed coup of '53 didn't cause any long term harm to Iran, it actually helped them. Absent the return of Shah Reza Iran would have been under economic sanctions since '51 rather than '79, and would have never experienced the economic/political/social growth gained before '79. Khomeini, and his two predecessors have done their best to isolate Iran from the West, an isolation that continues to cause them economic harm. Ahmadinejad is doing the most harm by pushing for war with the West, in hope that it will turn the majority of the population(currently under 40) against the West, and reinforce Islamic fundementalism.


More than tread lightly. Leave it like you were never there, nor anyone else.
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Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: Snowtoy] #841415 10/28/07 04:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,950
cmonty72 Offline
Trail Leader
****
I'm always impressed with your retorts snowtoy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Quote


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will never think Bushs reputation is worth almost four thousand American lives. F-ing! Thats dictator mentality and it has to stop. So now we are there to protect our masters legacy. Thats not even F-ing funny. Soldiers die for there country NOT ther president.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You misunderstood what I stated. You said Bush had nothing to lose by invading Iraq and everything to gain financially. I pointed out that his legacy as President is what he was risking by invading Iraq. You want to believe that it was all about money because that is what it appears to be today w/Haliburton, when in reality you have no evidence showing that WMD's weren't the real reason in the beginning. No one not even France spoke up to say that WMD's weren't in Iraq, everyone was under the impression that Sadam had them at his disposal, and WMD casing and residual chemical were actually found. The believed arsenal wasn't found but that doesn't mean they weren't in existance, Sadam had plenty of time to move them out of the country or simply burry them in the desert
I actually know Sadaam had OUR chemical weapons but this administration said Sadaam supports Al Queada and is building a nuclear bomb or close to building one. The WMDs in question were supposed to be nukes not some old canisters of nerve agent. Again this administration changed the definition of WMD midaway through the war like I would not notice. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is about money Snowtoy C'mon! On the level ou have to know that. Between you and me, I'd almost be alright with it if they would just do it for us. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

I pretty much agree with your history lesson but mine was from the enemies point of view. I firmly believe that you have to TRY to understand why they are so volatile to understand how to defeat them. Most of these "terrorist groups" were political parties at one time and most of them have explained their mission plainly. They want us out for arming Israel. Israel has occupied land that was not agreed upon back in 47. They have occupied it with robust force I might add.

One thing I keep in my mind no matter what buzzwords are being thrown around is these are people we are dealing with. People tend to fight back when occupied against their will. People remember seeing made in USA on the ejected casings of the rounds that killed their kids. They remember. Only we seam to forget and that could be our downfall.


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98 Montero 24v SOHC 3.5L, factory rear locker, Winter/tow package.
63 Jaguar XKE 3.8L FHC
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Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: cmonty72] #841416 10/28/07 04:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,950
cmonty72 Offline
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****
One huge obvious truth is. Israel was invented and given carte blanche of the middle east through our weapons. I believe it was a huge mistake to introduce Zionism to the middle east, let alone dropping them in the middle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> We should have just let them have Florida. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />


96 Montero LS 24V DOHC 3.0L.
98 Montero 24v SOHC 3.5L, factory rear locker, Winter/tow package.
63 Jaguar XKE 3.8L FHC
2000 Mercedes-Benz e430
07 fj cruiser
Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: cmonty72] #841417 10/29/07 02:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,814
Hydra747 Offline
Roll Me Over
*
Quote
One huge obvious truth is. Israel was invented and given carte blanche of the middle east through our weapons. I believe it was a huge mistake to introduce Zionism to the middle east, let alone dropping them in the middle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> We should have just let them have Florida. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />



Nice try -----but they already HAVE America!!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />

Re: Haditha Marines Acquitted [Re: cmonty72] #841418 10/30/07 09:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,568
Snowtoy Offline
Roll Me Over
Quote
I'm always impressed with your retorts snowtoy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Quote


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will never think Bushs reputation is worth almost four thousand American lives. F-ing! Thats dictator mentality and it has to stop. So now we are there to protect our masters legacy. Thats not even F-ing funny. Soldiers die for there country NOT ther president.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You misunderstood what I stated. You said Bush had nothing to lose by invading Iraq and everything to gain financially. I pointed out that his legacy as President is what he was risking by invading Iraq. You want to believe that it was all about money because that is what it appears to be today w/Haliburton, when in reality you have no evidence showing that WMD's weren't the real reason in the beginning. No one not even France spoke up to say that WMD's weren't in Iraq, everyone was under the impression that Sadam had them at his disposal, and WMD casing and residual chemical were actually found. The believed arsenal wasn't found but that doesn't mean they weren't in existance, Sadam had plenty of time to move them out of the country or simply burry them in the desert
I actually know Sadaam had OUR chemical weapons but this administration said Sadaam supports Al Queada and is building a nuclear bomb or close to building one. The WMDs in question were supposed to be nukes not some old canisters of nerve agent. Again this administration changed the definition of WMD midaway through the war like I would not notice. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is about money Snowtoy C'mon! On the level ou have to know that. Between you and me, I'd almost be alright with it if they would just do it for us. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

I pretty much agree with your history lesson but mine was from the enemies point of view. I firmly believe that you have to TRY to understand why they are so volatile to understand how to defeat them. Most of these "terrorist groups" were political parties at one time and most of them have explained their mission plainly. They want us out for arming Israel. Israel has occupied land that was not agreed upon back in 47. They have occupied it with robust force I might add.

One thing I keep in my mind no matter what buzzwords are being thrown around is these are people we are dealing with. People tend to fight back when occupied against their will. People remember seeing made in USA on the ejected casings of the rounds that killed their kids. They remember. Only we seam to forget and that could be our downfall.


In every war there are always profiteers, even the Civil War and WWII. Americans both those who own businesses and those who work for them have profited from war.

I know Haliburton is making money(though I don't remember a lot of companies even wanting to bid the job), and the private contractors as well as U.S.civilians no working in Iraq are also making 2-3 times the income they made here doing the same job over there. So yes a lot of people are making money from the war against terrorism, but I don't think we invaded Iraq for profit. The access to Iraqi oil isn't a high enough return on the investment.

I would have to disagree with you on the Iraq had no threat of real WMD's issue. Did we know that Sadam didn't have access to chemical weapons, no we knew he had them and used them in the past, logoic would dictate that he would still have them available. The one thing we didn't know is where they were, and still don't. We do know that Sadam was seeking the material to make nukes, all of our enemies are, especially those in the ME. They aren't seeking nikes so they can build an ICBM and reach America, they want nukes to be able to threaten their neighbors and forve the U.S. and the rest of the West into maling economic concessions just as NK has done. They understand that the West has lost its collective nerve to fight for anything that might result in them not being liked or bloodshed. The last round of economic concessions by the west to NK proved that, this is why Iran wont back down. Had we given NK the nukes they are after, Ahmadinejad would be complying with the UN and the West, and the newly elected Pres. of France would not be considering war w/Iran as a possibility.

Sadam pushed the hand of the UN by not complying with UN sanctions over and over again, all he had to do was allow the UN inspectors unfettered access as he was required to and he would still be in power.

I do understand the principle of looking at history from both sides of the story to understand where you enemy is coming from, however the losers side of any conflict is always shaded by their holding a grudge. There are people in England, Mexico, Japan, Germany, Russia, and even members of our Southern states still hold a grudge and resent losing the fight with the Colonies or the U.S.(or within). We can spend all of the time we want trying to understand why certain groups hate the U.S., but it wont help us solve the problem. We can't stop supporting Isreal, some European nations have pulled back a little on their support, but if push came to shove they would support Isreal again. People think that if we stop buying the ME oil their hatred of us will go away, not at all. As soon as we stop buying their oil, their economies will dry up, only furthering their resentment for the West, nd they will continue to breed terrorists. The only solution for peace in Me, for solving the issues brought on by Colonialism and the creating the state of Isreal is through them becoming real democracies. Simply holding an election or putting "Democratic............" in front of a nations name doesn't make them a democracy. Regardless of why you think we got involved, whether it be WMD's, liberating the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator, establish a real democratic gov. in a muslim nation, or purely for money, we have the chance to actual cause a paradigm change in ME culture. A chgange that will bring peace to the region, not just with the West but with each other.

We are also not an occupying force in Iraq, if we were we wouldn't be going house to house fighting insurgents, we would sin0ply level an entire city block, portion of teh city, or the entire city. We aren't fighting the Iraqi people that much anymore, in several areas the Iraqi born insurgents are fighting along side coalition troops to rid Iraq of Al Queda. They have realized that their only hope for peace lies with the U.S. and the new gov. of Iraq., and not Al Queda. We have started turning the corner on Iraq, we have to give it more time, and unfortunately that means putting our soldiers in harms way. As I have said before we as a nation have moved all in in Iraq whether we want to be or not.

Quote
People tend to fight back when occupied against their will. People remember seeing made in USA on the ejected casings of the rounds that killed their kids.

What better way of making ammends of this history then giving them the very thing the West takes for granted, real democracy and real freedom.


More than tread lightly. Leave it like you were never there, nor anyone else.
'90 X-cab 4.88's 33 BFG AT's, rr ARB, Headers, Ignition upgrade, cold air induction.
'91 X-cab 5.29's 315's BFG MT's, rr ARB, custom bumper and flatbed
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