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Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: Bolosh] #843417 11/06/07 06:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,686
Staceman Offline
Body Damage is Cool
If it were me, and I couldn't feel the gouge with my fingernail, I wouldn't worry about those scuffs on the walls. Possibly happened from too little oil or lube on and around the rings at assembly? From your pics, the head gasket looks fine (from what I can see, anyways). Appears to be no breeches along the cylinder mating rings. Perhaps it was just the head bolts not retorqued, and loosened up just a touch?


85 4Runner - With NEW Marlin 4.7 Gears!! It's a whole new beast!
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: Staceman] #843418 11/06/07 06:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 60
B
Bolosh Offline OP
Getting the Wheeling Fever
The back head bolts were barely tight when I went to remove them. Definately should have been retorqued.

Forgot to show this too... Possible causes of the front of the timing cover being covered with gunk? I'm assuming it is because of the fan blowing at the front of the motor, but should I be concerned about where the stuff was coming from?

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Bolosh; 11/06/07 06:37 PM.
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: Bolosh] #843419 11/06/07 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 669
D
dcg9381 Offline
Rock Warrior
I don't know where the gunk comes from - I always figured it's a mix of belt pieces and heat.. Normal on every 22R I've ever had.


22REturbo.net




1988 4Runner
22RTE core, turbocharged, megasquirted...
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: dcg9381] #843420 11/07/07 01:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 215
subliminaltrips Offline
Wheeler
i had the same problem because i had oil in a bolt hole that caused the bolt to hydrolock before it was actually tight giving me an inaccurate torque reading. i retorqued it after the first heat cycle and it torqued down about 1/4 turn more with the same torque wrench at the same 58 ft lbs setting. my head gasket blew out the side right where the bolt was about 100 miles later when prerunning out along some power lines. the bolt was barely finger tight and when i pulled the head that bolt hole had a bunch of oil inside. i remember heavily dipping the bolts in oil prior to installing them but all the oil ended up dripping into the bolt hole before it was threaded in. all the other holes were pretty dry and the bolts were still tight but that one being full of oil was the only thing i could point my fingers at. i put a new gasket on and made sure the holes were oiled but not full of oil and its been 35k miles.

Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: subliminaltrips] #843421 11/07/07 01:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 132
Y
yota89 Offline
Wheeler
Did they resurface the block, if they did check the where the timing cover mates to the head. I had to file my timing cover down to match the block height, because if its high it wont let the head sit fully on the block. Other than that just make sure you re torque them this time.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by yota89; 11/07/07 01:56 AM.

89 yota pickup
22RE 261C cam
Tanny / engine rebuilt after 256K
Head machined to RV street spec(EB's)
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: Bolosh] #843422 11/07/07 04:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 4,230
OOP'S Offline
Roll Me Over
I have never lubed the threads on headbolts in all the years I have been rebuilding engines. You will get a different torque reading between wet/dry threads. I also skimed over the FSM and no where in it does it say to lube the threads on the headbolts. Just an FYI.


David Fritzsche
1990 Ex-Cab V-6,5-speed, with a few mods
04.5 CTD Dodge 2500 Ram--Tow Rig
Roseville, CA

"Serenity through Sobriety"
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: OOP'S] #843423 11/07/07 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,576
engnbldr Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
Quote
I have never lubed the threads on headbolts in all the years I have been rebuilding engines. You will get a different torque reading between wet/dry threads. I also skimed over the FSM and no where in it does it say to lube the threads on the headbolts. Just an FYI.


>>>*I do understand that everyone has their way, if it works, don't change. But I say to lube the threads with normal motor oil. The bolt hole threads should be chased out, also (NOT tapped!)..We use an old head bolt, and cut a groove with a hacksaw, they make a perfect chaser.

Then be sure the bolt hole is cleansed completely, note using compressed air without FAIL will get you in the eye so use safety glasses...

*Ask me how I know....*LOL**

THEN: lightly oil the threads, DO NOT install them dry, that simply INCREASES friction and contributes to false torque readings...Just MHO, I HATE to redo anything....A slight overtorque normally hurts nothing, an undertorque creates "defective" head gaskets.....

Spin the bolt in all the way and back out with your fingers, if the bolt feels sticky at any point you WILL have a false torque reading. If you feel that, rechase and reclean them.

Then install the bolts, snug them to 50%, back them off 1/4 turn...Yes in sequence. Do NOT be in a hurry here, you are saving yourself time and troubles. Then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn, then 100% and good to go. (Yes, even with used head bolts, unless you DID reinstall each bolt in it's original position using an unsurfaced head and block???)

All we are doing here is mating thread imperfections, they are always there.

Remember to retorque with the engine warm, if you got her right, none of them will move...PIA, do it anyway, if you do you eliminate a few hours of work in a few weeks or months down the road...

*Shortcuts? No prob, they take a tad more time and cost a tad more money...No prob, you DO have a cell phone, right?

Someone will probably come and get you....:)

Recheck hot after runin when you adjust the valves for the final setting. Uniform and even clamping forces means that 10 years from now you are still starting her up and going down the road, uneven means that the head gasket was "defective" and you don't get to go fishing that weekend.

One discovery we made, the 58# the factory calls for is fine for the composition gasket (asbestos impregnated) used originally by the factory. The new 10.9 grade bolts out now call for 64#, because most quality suppliers are now selling the new metal lined gaskets. The older style composition also work fine, too, the new stuff is just better. Even most Toyota dealerships now supply the new metal lined piece, those are pretty good gaskets..

But the metal lined gaskets (NOT MLS, different stuff there) are needing a bit more clamping force to compress properly, I discovered this while testing some items.. Note here I am old and could be wrong but I ain't...

Gasket failure using these procedures are almost unheard of unless some kind of upset condition exists, in which case it will fail no matter what you do. In fact, the gasket is the weak link, designed to fail in upset/mis-tuned conditions, and save other expensive engine parts......*EB


*Beats the he** outa me!....*LOL**...
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: engnbldr] #843424 11/07/07 01:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 60
B
Bolosh Offline OP
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Thanks for the comments guys, and the very comprehensive post EB <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Before doing this rebuild, I read each and every thread/howto/manual I could find on the procedure. My head bolt holes were clean, I fingered the bolts all the way in and out prior to actual installation, and lightly lubed them with clean motor oil prior to final install. It really seems that this was probably all caused by not retorquing the bolts. I also am sure I used the FSM torque values, with a metal lined HG. Probably needed a bit more #'s initially, followed by a retorque after running it.

I'm unsure at this point what I want to do with the head. Its been shaved once when I just had it rebuilt, but I don't know if it had ever been prior to that. I never overheated to the point where I was in the red, but the temps did rise to 3/4 or a bit more maybe twice. I just don't know if I want to gamble on this head anymore and I'm thinking a new head from EB may be the way to go. I picked up an OE gasket from Toyota this time around and haven't decided if I'm going to reuse the head bolts, buy new ones, or go for ARP studs this time.

Decisions...

Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: Bolosh] #843425 11/08/07 05:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 230
G
GOI87 Offline
Wheeler
I had some gasket problems with my timming cover after my rebuild (after ~2000 miles on it)...one thing lead to another and I ended up pulling my head off and redoing the head gasket. Since the head was off I wanted to make sure that it was stright. I took it to the machine shop to make darn sure it was stright...They didn't find anything wrong with it and gave it back...no charge since they didn't have to machine it. Doesn't hurt to try. You never know maybe nothing is wrong with the head you just need to reinstall it. Good luck <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


87 Toyota 4Runner-RV Head, Custom Grind Cam, Doug Thorley Header, Keith Black Pistions, 2 1/4" Magnaflow cat, Dynomax Exhaust
2003 Toyota Matrix XRS-Injen CAI
Re: Head gasket blown 2500 miles after complete rebuild [Re: yota89] #843426 11/13/07 07:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 201
T
toyomorph Offline
Wheeler
Hey Yota - if a guy did a rebuild and failed to check the height match of the front cover and the block,and the cover was indeed a few thousandths taller, then he installed the head - do you think it is possible that this mismatch or height difference of said parts could be the source of both an oil and water leak into the 1st cylinder?

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