Would you be interested in submitting an article for your fuel cell setup?

Little Joe's post

Sorry, didn't mean to imply dumb as in a useless manner, more that I've seen a lot of gimmick/false praise for them. The concept is neat, and I've read a lot about truckers using them on semi's, which makes sense considering the excess power being wasted by a giant diesel while cruising along the highway and at idle.

The problem I see though is that with an engine the size of ours, even though the amount of power needed is significantly reduced once a steady speed is reached, is that we still don't have all that much spare power at our disposal, without burning a little more fuel

Assuming that we're talking about the same thing here, the idea of course is to use the excess energy being wasted by the engine at cruise to pump more electricity out of the alternator and electrolysis (the opposite of a fuel cell actually, not really sure what the device should be actually be called) of the water. Then inject the hydrogen that has been seperated into the intake and in turn burn less fuel to get better gas milage (by allowing the engine to run a leaner mixture, at a reasonable temp).

It sounds good, but it seems to me that if you take into account the low efficiency of the process (somewhere between 50 and 90 % depending), combined with the less than 100% efficiency of the alternator, plus losses of energy due to wiring and other losses, it just seems like very little return. On top of that, in order to truly see a mileage increase you would have to adjust the timing to account for the leaner air/fuel ratio. So you would either have to have a reserve tank of H2 to run the timing like that all the time, or have a way to switch the timing back and forth.

I like the idea, I just don't think it works on something small like these toyota engines. Now, what if you hooked up a solar cell on the roof and used it instead of the alternator? Then it TRULY would be free energy, when it was sunny of course. If you were to do something like that you would definitely have to rig up a system to adjust the timing, but I think the gains could be worth it. Any thoughts?

Oh, and as a side note, it does apparently reduce emissions, which could perhaps mean that in emissions states you could remove the cat and run one of these systems, getting the benifit of a free flowing exhaust while still being legal (gutted cat I was thinking). Just a thought.

Hydrogen injection is what you are talking about (not sure if that is what the OP is talking about) but i applied for a co-op job at a company that made those for trucks.
Its a huge box, that you pour water into, and it uses electrolysis to seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen.
i think it's prettymuch like water injection where it lets you run more timing/boost at the same fuel/air temp to make more power. on a N/A engine, it will barely be needed. now if it is supercharged/turbocharged, whole nother story, but it's easier to just use methanol...

BUT, i dont think that's what the OP was talking about.

I'm not really sure how it works on a forced induction setup, but on an N/A it simply acts as a catalyst of sorts to help the fuel combustion. basicially it allows you to run a leaner mixture (leaner meaning less fuel burned and more power) without raising the temp of the combustion. With the leaner (also meaning faster) fuel burn the timing would need to be advanced to take advantage of the hydrogen assisted burn.

I think you're on to it. It's the basic process of running DC current through a a cell (many ways to make these, and some are better than others) that has stainless steel electrodes/plates, along with a catalyst agent to promote the electrolysis process. The hydrogen/oxygen gas that forms from the splitting of the water molecules is then run into the intake of the vehicle.

I honestly can't comment as to how this is possible, but there are many people using it with varied success. Some have more or less than others. Overall, there seems to be about a 20-50% increase in fuel economy when hooked up right and having everything "dialed in". Of course, I can't speak from personal experience because I haven't done this yet.

I have a verified working cell right now, but I haven't installed it. Hopefully soon. Just need to find time.

This technology, which is very old, should work better on smaller displacement engines than the larger ones. It takes gobs and gobs of the oxygen/hydrogen gas to run a vehicle entirely without gasoline. The purpose of doing this is to supplement the gasoline. Greg hit on that already.

Like anything in life, I'm sure there are many claims that are over-exaggerated, but I don't believe for one second that everyone that is using this and claiming a significant increase is gas mileage is lying. I realize there are many skeptics, and that's okay. I have told some people locally that I'm working on such a device, and some of them won't believe it until they see it. Fine with me. If it's a flop, so be it. But if it works, than I'll have some ammunition to silence those skeptics.

I'll be putting these both on my '94 22re 4x4 and my '96 Saturn SL1.

Not sure I want to invest the time to do that, but we'll see how things go. I have to get this to work first. It may take awhile to get it set up the way I want it.

How is everyone calculating their mileage, anyway? I fill the tank ('til the pump clicks off by itself), drive it 'til near empty (for better accuracy when calculating mileage), fill it again, divide the gallons it took to fill into the miles since last fill. BUT, having 31" tires, the offset on the speedometer now is 8%. This was done by a 10 mile check, via the mile posts.

I still hear alot of controversary on whether or not a bone-stock 22r or a mildly modified 22r (different cam, O/S valves, slightly bigger exhaust) gets better mileage.

The hydrogen can cause hydrogen enbrittlement in some materials.

20 miles/US gallon, or 24 miles per Imp gallon, 89 octane, on a 50/50 city/highway (60 mph) mix

1989 4Runner, stock 22RE, 5-speed, 287,000 miles, K&N, stock exhaust, 2" lift, 32" tires, 4.56 gears.

This is weird.. I get great gas mileage in my 85 Truck, 3" lift with stock tires and 4:10 gearing and a 5-speed. I get 23-25 mpg. Most of my driving is 'highway' running between 60-80 mph. I also did a half <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />ed rebuild on it a year ago... sounds like crap, but runs okay.

edit: 22re