OK- So what am I missing? For a small scale, single family dwelling, how come alternative energy has to be so complicated? I'm not talking about creating myself the ability to get completely off the grid, but suplimenting my 110V. 50 years ago, they made a generator that would rub on a bike tire and light a lamp. With what's available today for the RV and Semi market for 12V accessories, I'd think a guy could pretty easily power some things like a TV, some lights, coffee maker, etc., with a simple windmill coupled to an alternator, maybe charging a battery bank???
All I know is, where I live, the wind never stops blowing. I know I couldn't feasibly rid myself of my connection to the grid. Refrigeration, heating/cooling, the ability to run a skil saw, etc., are all too important to me. I know there is a way to get to that level, but it's very expensive to get set up. I helped my dad look into it when we built his house at the end of a dirt road in the middle of Montana. Many European appliances are low voltage, but I can't go to that kind of expense.
No offense, but I'm no tree hugger, I'm just the poorest guy you know, and every little bit helps.

The main reason is it isn't in demand, the only complication to it is regulating the output. IIRC, you only need about a 2-3mph wind to generate a fair amount of electricty.

Have you checked w/your state energy commission or provider, to see if they have some type of energy incentives. Here in CA, PG&E have a program were they were paying up to 50% the cost of solar, and I think about 30% the cost for wind generator

Colorado has the same thing, 50% off for solar installation. It gets you "off the grid". The big thing with any solar/wind generator stuff is that, when you make it. It is all in DC current. You have to buy equipment that makes DC to AC. That can be spendy by itself. But the DC to AC unit is cheaper than buy all new stuff to run of of DC.

Electricity is cheap, you better off trying to save money in other ways then trying to go "off grid". There is no return on the investment <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand stuff that does pay off is Insulation, and new energy efficient appliances.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/saveenergymoney/savingstips/

Maybe not in $$$, but I think there's probably a huge emotional payback the first time the rolling blackout hits your neighborhood and you've got power while your neighbors swelter and make little voodoo-doll gestures at you <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Eric W.

OK- So what am I missing? For a small scale, single family dwelling, how come alternative energy has to be so complicated? I'm not talking about creating myself the ability to get completely off the grid, but suplimenting my 110V. 50 years ago, they made a generator that would rub on a bike tire and light a lamp. With what's available today for the RV and Semi market for 12V accessories, I'd think a guy could pretty easily power some things like a TV, some lights, coffee maker, etc., with a simple windmill coupled to an alternator, maybe charging a battery bank???
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>>>*You and I are thinking alike, I plan on doing exactly the same thing, except with water.

The problem with hooking up to the main power grid is electricians, permits, forms to fill out, convertors to buy, and if someone actually DOES come up with a home built system there is no way they will ever get it approved. Government insists on well tested designs they can control...and tax.

So I am designing a hydro powered wheel (since everything commercially available is antique technology)..I have to build that myself, easy stuff.

Then I plan to just hook it up to a battery bank, I hope to get that out of one of those Hybrid vehicles, maybe someone will wreck one for me.

With that I can charge the batteries 24/7 and run 12 volt lights in the house. I would leave some on the grid for backup. I also plan to use them with a reducer to hook up to my car batteries, so those won't be plugged in all the time either. (Like my Corvette, it sits for a month and the battery is dead)

Dollars? The big expense will be the wrecked car, the rest I can make.

We have enough water to run a pretty good size power plant, I know I could probably even sell power. But the cost to do the government thing is amazing. (Part of why we have the current mess, too)

My way is nice and cheap, besides, it's fun...*EB

I don't have any plans to hook up to the grid, I'm thinking along the lines of the "full redneck monty".<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" /> I'm talking about a stand alone system, of a few lights, wiring, plugs and small appliances. Something I can take with me. I rent my home, and power is a BIG part of my monthly outlay. In winter, it runs about 30% of my overhead. I can buy most of this stuff very inexpensively through my business, as I sell RV parts and accessories.
This all started when I was married and owned my home. We had an open-loop watersource heat pump which discharged into a stream bed. I always wanted to supplement the water level with the sprinkler system, then run a re-circulating waterfall deal with wind power and a small pump. In that situation, it wouldn't matter if it wasn't running all the time 'cause the wind happened to stop.


OR..... another idea is a guy in a neighboring town, who tunneled under his neighbors home and tapped their phone line and used it's power to run low voltage lights throughout his home. Finally got caught when his house was on fire, and the power company couldn't get the lights to go off. They figured out where his power source was when the neighbor's phone rang and his lights dimmed. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

>>>*I keep looking for the "Fatal Flaw" in my own thoughts on generating power from a small source. I see the need since power rates should just about triple within a decade, perhaps sooner if oil keeps going up. (And it will)..

The big one was the real world cost of hooking up to the main power grid. So I spent a week trying to figure out a way to do it for say...$30.00???....*LOL**...

It hit me after reading the O/P that there was the answer..*THANK YOU!!...(Two heads is better than one my Daddy always said.)

So...12 Volt lighting it is, easy stuff and no need to call the government. Big expense is the battery pack, bet I can find one cheap and maybe free.

The charger will be a simple alternator, two of them in tandem if I have to, they need to run at about 1500 RPM and the regulator is built right in. Now I need to figure out how much water weight it takes to generate enough torque to spin the alternator, then control the water flow.

We have plenty of water since we have 200 GPH running into the main tank and we aren't using 2% of it so just spill the excess on down the creek. Install a shutoff valve and adjust it until I get it right, easy stuff.

The same thing can be done with wind power if the source is steady, those are tougher to build because they need braking to control the fan speed.

I winder how hard it would be to convert a simple passenger car ABS system to that? Heck if brakes will stop a car I bet they could slow down a fan...

*Hmmmmm.....

*Now you guys know why I get up at 4 AM...... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.....*EB

when I was talking to the "solar guys" they said that they do not recommend "going of grid" because of the battery expense (this may not apply to the homemade thing-a-ma-jigs).

They said that when you are producing extra Kw hours (daytime), it makes your meter run backwards. For each Kw you produce in the day, you get to use it at night, or whenever your Solar power can't keep up. So it really is a 1:1 ratio of Kw hour to Kw hour. That way if you need to pull some heavy amps (dryer, microwave..ect) you are still attached to the grid. From what he said is that at the end of the year, if the energy company owes you they will write you a check. Don't get excited, they pay you pennies on the dollar. So don't think you can get rich doing this. Though it has crossed my mind.

The problem with being ON the grid to sell back is that the utility company expects YOU to pay to hook up to them. At least up here anyway.

FWIW, my bank wants me to have the utility estimate how much it would cost to run power to where I intend to set up a hybrid system (wind/solar) BEFORE they will give me take a loan for my setup, which currently we have figured at $6K.

Hah- I'm over 4 poles away, nevermind a drop and meter. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />