2 words...

Patriot act

AND I agree with you about congress, and them being in la la land.

I have to say I agree with Hydra here. I doubt Wagoneer or whatever his name is, left with empty pockets and I still suspect he more wanted to leave before the big blow up of GM, than was "fired". The appearance of Obama "firing" the guy was probably intended to give Obama points to his base for taking some decisive action.

Note that Ford did not take the bail out, yet the bail out money was still set aside for them and the government "appears" to be annoyed that Ford is not playing ball and is in fact operating as an indepedent company. That is a little concerning to me. I would think the government should celebrating this fact.

In the end, Ford will probably be the only indepedent quasi American based auto manufacture left. Chrysler is going to end up European owned if it's still exists at all and GM is on it's way to be at least broken up, if not outright owned by someone like the Chinese.

Just like I said would happen several years ago and was promptly laughed at...there are now plans in place to outsource assembly jobs to China and import GM vehicles made in China to the U.S. In fact, one of the largest GM plants in the world is in China right now building Buicks...supposedly for Asians...except capacity at the plant is far more than needed for that market. But it's no longer a conspiracy theory...they're pretty open about the fact that Chinese made GM products will be arrived on our shores within 1 to 2 years.

If you ever wondered what the French felt like when Hitler marched through Paris, you're about to find out. The U.S. as the super power is absolutely done. There's not even a debate about that anymore. The only debate left is whether we'll remain an indepedent sovereign nation at all. And that's going to be pretty hard to maintain when our absolute national bankruptcy becomes more than apparent.

America is a lot like the British Empire. They pretty much collasped, mostly due to economic fall out, in the 1940s and 50s. But like the British, we'll probably be in denial about it for years to come. Heck, some of the British still think they rule the world when they are nothing more than state of the European Union...and that's pretty much going to be our fate. Just a state of a much larger power.

The really bad news is that whatever power that rises to take our place, will probably not be as friendly to our values and interests as we were to the British when we overtook them as the supreme western power.

Agree 100% with the Patriot Act being a horrible piece of legislation proposed by the Administration, PASSED by the Congress, and signed into law under the guise of a crisis... It's horrible.

But I still argue that it pails in comparison to what this current administration/Congress has done in the last 3 months. Limiting executive pay, threateming 90% taxes on contractually obligated bonuses, villifying individuals who received bonuses, villifying a city (Vegas), ousting CEO's, nationalizing banks, refusing returns of TARP money, refusing to close the border in the midst of a self proclaimed pandemic, a spending orgasm marketed as a stimulous, the census being pulled into the White House and given to Acorn... lie after lie after lie...

Yes, the patriot act sucks. But I don't think you can compare that one piece of legislation over 8 years w/ what has happened since January and have a valid comparison.

The Chinese Buicks are Centurys (is it Centurys or Centuries in this case? Century is the name of the car, so... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />). I remember seeing the listing on the GM service computers, like it's a different car. I looked at it a few times, but it seemed to be pretty much just like any other "W" body. I didn't know for sure that they were being built in China. I thought they were a US export (they called it an export in the computer).

I wonder if my old service manager remembers our conversation when I gave my notice there, almost 2 years ago now. I told him I found another job because I didn't believe GM would be a viable company in the near future. Things were slowing down and I didn't like the decisions GM was making.

He looked at me like I was a raving madman and wished me well <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Not liking the stockholders decisions does NOT give the government the right to oust a CEO. If that's what you think, then you hav eto accept the statement that the gov't is ultimately in charge of every single company and has effective veto power over every owner's decision.. That's false, and it also violates contract law. It's also not what the gov't is mandated to do.



Agree/disagree. They should not have asked for LOANS from the devil. That I agree. And a loan will have stiff requirements, that I do agree. However, a loan is not a bailout in the sense of the bailouts forced upon many banks. The gov't does not have the right or authority to run a car company or mandate any contractual changes outside of Bankruptcy court. Additionally, Obama has NO RIGHT to ignore Bankruptcy law and give 55% of Chrysler to the UAW.



Agreed.



So?



But the bank does NOT have the right to dictate who runs your company or what widget you produce... they only have the right to call the note and "foreclose" on your business.



100% incorrect. If you were in the context of a bank, I agree, but the fed gov't stepped in here and helped sell the loans to the general public stating over 3M jobs would be lost if they didn't. Now the gov't is firing some 100-200K people. THAT type of loan is one you get from a bookie - not from a bank. Ultimately, that was GM's mistake, and they shoudl own it, BUT the gov't has NO RIGHT to ignore laws to suit their goals of control. That is what is happening here.



WAit - if GM didn't get loans and the gov't still manipulated them illegally, you MIGHT see it my way? That you and others think that way scares the utter crap out of me. This is private industry, people! The gov'ts job is NOT to run private industry for political or popular gain! If you really think Gov't is the solution, go spend some time in England, E. Europe, China or Russia... That's what our fate will be.

Am I happy with the way GM was run? No. Is it my decision? NO - I'm not a stock holder. So they should tell me (and anyone else) to pound sand. However, I place the blame of any car company ills straight in the hands of city, county, state and federal gov't along with the UAW. When your hands are tied, there's only so much you can do as an executive staff. When your most profitable vehicles are made almost illegal by gov't regulations, you're kind of hosed. And when the UAW would rather run the company into the ground while seeking public outcry against non-union workers than keep the company running, I have no idea how people can not fault them.

There's a reason the most efficient mfg plants are in Brazil - the UAW won't allow them to be built here. And now the UAW will own Chrysler and likely GM, with the gov't making the call as to which cars will be built. Mark my words, w/in 5 years, you'll see no SUV's or large vehicles from Chrysler and GM, and ultimately, the rules will be changed so that only the UAW/Gov't owned mfg's can be successful. We've already started down that path, and the free market has been villified, and will continue to do so.

Just step back for a moment and ask how you would feel if Geitner, Obama or Immanual stepped into your company and told you THEY didn't like how it was being run, that you get paid too much, that you should work for a union, that you make the wrong product. Precedent has been set, folks... Intentionally, I might add.

GM and Chrysler are essentially bankrupt. They now have almost zero say in how they get to run their business. This is how it normally works. The only difference is usually a bankruptcy judge makes all the decisions. That probably should have happened here, so the law and precedent could be followed, but the two companies agreed to try it this way, giving the power to the federal government, in exchange for an infusion of cash.

The alternative would likely have been that both companies would have been entirely liquidated and would not even exist. I'm not an expert in bankruptcy, but I think both companies are so far gone that restructuring in bankruptcy without any government assistance may not have been possible. The creditors probably would have demanded liquidation and we'd have no companies left and less jobs than we do now. Most importantly, any reasonable person could see that future revenue was going to be in the toilet for decades, so there was no way things were going to work out without a major cash infusion, major downsize and total revamping of the companies and their products.

This is really a no win situation, but I don't see the government as necessarily overstepping its bounds. The companies voluntarily submitted to the government in exchange for cash and the opportunity to survive somewhat intact. Remember it was the companies begging for this money, not the other way around. The government didnÆt even want to get involved originally. Ford chose not accept the cash and remains an independent company. It could still fail, but its problems were not as imminent as it was with Chrysler and GM.

I don't agree with ObamaÆs strategy of essentially killing off thousands of dealers, selling off the brands to Fiat and the Chinese and changing the types of cars sold to smaller, cheaper eco-boxes. I don't agree with the 35-42 mpg cafa standards that are coming either, but it all ties in with Obama's political agenda and unfortunately, that's what this country voted for. And because the vast majority of voters still believe in the two party duopoly that rules this nation almost in totalitarian fashion, this is the kind of garbage we will continue to live with.

Until the Republicans and conservatives pull their collective heads out of their asses and mount a reasonable opposition, or better yet, finally decide to form a powerful third party that actually represents the values of our constitution and founders, this is the political direction we are stuck with for the foreseeable future. And since the Republican party is all but completely collapsed in on itself and too many Republicans and Conservatives have forgotten what they used to really stand for, having been corrupted by the neo-con/Bush ideology of the last 8 years, I doubt things are going to change for quite some time.

The FAR bigger picture here and what worries me even more is what all of this represents. We should be taking heed, because GM and Chrysler are a microcosm of our government and country as a whole.

Anyone who's been paying attention to the news should know that the U.S. dollar's days are numbered. Stories of a new global currency in the works and being called for, are now so abundant, there are now dozens of articles written on the subject a day. Everyone now admits that interest rates are headed for the moon, now that no one is willing to buy our dollars to finance our trillions and trillions and trillions of over spending, bailouts and liabilities.

This means, the U.S.A. is now absolutely bankrupt. It's only a matter of making it official and admitting it. And when current supply of money runs out or printed to the point that all of our savings and earnings becomes worthless then that day will be here.

And we'll be in the exact same boat as GM and Chrysler. At the mercy of some higher power...our creditors. powerless to make decisions for ourselves, at the whim of some foreign power or international banking cartel.

What seemed to most to be nothing more than chicken little pessimism or tin foil hat talk is actually taking place right now and our final days as an independent nation, much less a super power are just around the corner.

The only thing that surprise me is that it's all happening a lot faster than I thought it would.

Here , Here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />



100% in concurence here! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

And can we remember Nazi GE and all the nightmares... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />

I am not one to favor a Police state either........




Ya, and thanks to the "Crown Victoria!".....Trillion dollar victory for Ford! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />



What does it look like?

ME:

BKG:


ME:

BKG:

Yes they do!
My wife and I started our "kid therapy" company about 6 months ago.....and under the premise of one of the clauses it stipulated that we were to have a certain number of staff and specifically the positions (terms of our bussines loan).

.........And conversely WE Will PROLLY be CIted for not having MEdical coverage for our employees....under OBAMA admin (regarding small bussines) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />
..

He stated this during his campaign.........."All companies (smalll and large) would be mandated to secure families with medical health insurance!"

-----Sounds more like a Divorce Judge speaking to a non-custodial party <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />

this is my last week at my job, this is our 3rd set of lay offs in 3 months, we make rubber molded parts for the auto industries, the auto indus. as we know got hit hard, alot of people are and will be laid-off. as it was I paid $124 a month for insur, if I want to keep it it will cost $290 per month with cobra after thats up it will cost $900 per month. You know with all the billions and billions of $$$ givin to all these company's if the Gov, gave it to the people everyone could pay off their homes and med bills etc. sorry but I am not a ECO $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ per year. GM and the rest, filed chapter what ever and said we don't have to pay our suppliers, which we have supply's for the suppliers, so they don't order from use, so we get laid off. I can't give their name but it starts with a D. what is not right is the small auto dealers that are closing , even if they still sale other cars they can not do any warranty work for their customors, they will have to take it somewhere else.

GM is paying its suppliers early, in May instead of June 1, and it is widely thought that they will declare bankruptcy on June 1. They have not declared anything yet.

I have also been reading that if they do declare, there should be little disruption to their operations. When the Chrysler lines closed, it was in the middle of a shift and was like a fire drill. My thoughts are that this was done to avoid having disgruntled workers damage things before they left. Bad scene.

John B.