Wealth redistribution at its finest.

If there's any good news, it's that the House version has NO chance in the Senate. What concerns me is that a lot of the stuff I object to so much may have been put in the House version only as foils - never expected to succeed, but to be thrown away as bargaining chips to those outraged who may be so glad they don't get the worst stuff, they'll be happy to accept the lesser of the evils. That's the congressional method of getting the children to eat their string beans - they put them on a plate alongside spinach and don't make them eat the spinach if they'll eat the beans.

I agree with Curtis - we do need some reform, but reform that makes insurance more affordable - like stop with the marketing programs - stop giving seniors (or anybody else) Viagra and paying for it out of MediCare or insurance funds. We need to stop the frivolous lawsuits that hang over every doctor's head so he sends patients to specialist after specialist just to cover his arse..... and that drive up his malpractice premiums that require him to raise his fees that require the insurance companies to raise their rates that require you to pay a higher premium.

Ahhhhh - what a screwy industry.

Frank

>>>*One very good pieces of news, I now know exactly how I will vote come next elections.....*EB

Me too! I'm simply voting against any incumbent.

The system is broken. It would seem that this plan will break it completely. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

Maybe my employer should pay for my health ins. Oh s*#t... Im self employed. I may just let the .GOV fine me until I have lost my home, job, HEALTH , so someone else can take care of me!

TANSTAAFL "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" R. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. (Good SF read for an old book)

I don't mind paying some taxes. Maybe someone could come up with a tax system that is truly fair. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I just want to pay a reasonable price for the services I need/want. Another complex system is not the answer. Fix what is broken, then add to that to fill in the holes. Do not dig more holes.

We do need health care reform, insurance reform, tort reform as well. Lets start with reforming congress. We just replaced one set of wankers for another. I just worry that in the end, we are just doomed. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rodent.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you guys. The system here is crazy. Was it much better 20, 30 years ago?

National competition between these companies would be good (as well as other public service companies). And no, this country cannot afford this reform. Why does Obama insist that the changes will not add the the deficit? If this can be paid for so easily by cutting down on fraud and 'waste' why the hell don't they do that first anyway? Not that I was a big fan (too young anyway), but Margret Thatcher said that socialism is doomed to fail because eventually you will run out of other people's money to spend!

One advantage I see of having government involvement in something like healthcare is that if you don't like what is being done, you can have your say on polling day. However, I don't think this is the right way to 'fix' the problem either. Perhaps some kind of independent body regulating health insurance and drug companies would be better. I don't know, healthcare seems to be a nightmare wherever you live...unless you don't mind paying 60+% income tax.

This health care bill has nothing to do with a government run plan, so it doesn't apply or even remotely compare to anything you might be used to in Europe.

This bill consolidates power of the insurances companies and creates a system whereby those without insurance have to buy it from the very same insurance companies that are part of the problem, with government subsidities.

Our entire political economic system is full of insane manipulation. In the case of this bill, the insurance companies pretend to be against it, while the Democrats pretend to be against insurance companies. The Republicans then pretend to be against this bill, which gives the whole legitimacy in the minds of 51% of the people who might support it and thus it all passes, although barely, under the guise of a government run health care reform.

When in fact, it's nothing of the sort. The reason this country is screwed up is because the American people still believe they are debating issues such as bigger/smaller government, liberal/conservatism, socialism/capitalism.

All of those things are long dead. Our government/economic system has morphed into a system whereby private interests have merged with the government, using the government's power to act as an agent on their behalf. It "appears" to be socialism in some respects and free market in other respects, which is why we are foolish enough to debate such issues, but in fact it's neither.

It's an entirely new system, much like China operates under a new system, whereby corporatism and communism have merged.

I don't necessarily support a fully government run health care system, but at least it would be better than what this bill proposes.

As far as people chirping that this is unconstitutional, bla, bla...the VAST majority of our government/economic system is unconstitutional. Our entire economic/monetary system with the federal reserve is unconstitutional. Every war we've ever entered into since WW2 was unconstitutional. If you're just now waking up to the fact that our government has been pyssing all over our constitution since before most of us were born..congradulations. But this nothing compared to the violations they committed in the past.

Us Aussies got it right about 25 years ago, and from what I have heard from here (feel free to correct me) I believe Barrak Obama is right (or his intentions are right).

Australia nationalized its health care way back in the early '70's in a system called "Medicare". basically the Govt payed for (or at least heavily subsidized) most health care costs for all Australians by allocating money to the states to run the system (amortized into the general grant). This meant that even the most marginalized people had access to medical services, basically for free.

This system, although very expensive to run, worked VERY well. Most of the right wing (Liberal Government - Malcolm Frazer/John Howard) and some of the left wing governments (financially constrained '87 crash, and early 90's) had to trim the costs in the intervening years, but it still remains substantially intact.

We still have a heavily subsidized Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) which has a cap on the price on individual medicine costs, and a caps on the amounts that a person can spend on medications per year. It regularly runs into the $billions of dollars to run, but there is no way ANY government would have the balls to cut it significantly.

Having said that I can honestly say it is not perfect (from someone that works in the system - Registered Nurse). We do have funding issues and ridiculous management incompetence at a state level (controlling the state hospitals). That may well change soon if the Federal Govt takes over the state run health systems due to that incompetence.

My 2c worth from across the puddle....

I'm with LandRaider 100%

Yes! If we had a huge surplus it would be great to have a public healthcare system (like public transit) but on a community level. Leaving this to the Feds is insane.....The same folks that have "experimented" with the population in the past will now be in charge of your body and health..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

As far as who is going to pay for it goes.....Do you guys really think the rich will pay for it? I don't! I know it will end up being the middle class footing the bill. The ultra rich know how to avoid tax pits and the poor are exempt so.....<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Once again the middle class pays for something it may not qualify for. Most of us are in that category......We earn too much to be eligible for services like Medi-cal yet we earn too little to be able to afford a family medical plan. Immigrants are instantly covered on medi-cal when they arrive!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I see this Fed healthcare thing being a complete disaster to our health and personal freedoms. (mandatory vaccinations without adequate testing), denial of treatment, micro-chipping, sterilization, mandatory Prozac, ETC.)<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

I'm one of the folks who doesn't have a healthcare plan and I still know this is a bad idea we can't afford.

Apparently all don't agree:

AHCRA

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />