Saw this on the news today. Steve Wozniak of Apple claims his Prius has a software problem related to the cruise control that causes full throttle acceleration. So the Prius and Tacoma both apparently have accelerator issues yet to hit the fan.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10445564-64.html

I'm seeing Tundras being mentioned, but not Tacos?

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx

I agree that they are currently ignoring the Taco problems (and Prius and maybe more vehicles) or blaming them on other issues. But what's most interesting to me is the jump in sudden acceleration complaints for the years and vehicles when Toyota added a certain drive-by-wire throttle system to the Tacoma (and supposedly also Highlander). Even if a portion of those can be blamed on an aftermarket floor mat or a stupid driver, the statistics and stories say people are telling the truth about a real problem.

This is the most recent article I've found (2 months old) that also explains it the best:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/29/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29

Two other links that provide more info from 2008:
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/car...Since-February/
http://suddenacceleration.com/?p=371

You can search for and read NHTSA complaints under a couple of "vehicle speed control" categories at:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/index.cfm

When dealerships inspect a vehicle after some incident, the stories always say there are no error codes found and they can't find anything wrong. Again, that just points to a software problem where the software doesn't do enough or appropriate self-checking, or the programmer didn't think of certain failure modes to watch out for, such as if both the brake and accelerator pedals are pressed at the same time, particularly if it's for any length of time (like more than a second).

I remember discussing the possibilities of installing a drive-by-wire system in an engineering college-built experimental vehicle almost 20 years ago. We discussed some scary failure modes that you'd need to very carefully watch for in the software and design around potential problems. It's mind-boggling to me that a major auto manufacturer wouldn't add appropriate safety checks in the software when they install any drive-by-wire system, such as when the final throttle output signal is fairly high while the brake pedal is pressed at all. If I'd be the programmer, that would be the first and most obvious safety check in the drive-by-wire software. And if they do check for that, then there's some other interference (software, hardware, or electromagnetic) in the system that's preventing the computer from properly seeing either the brake input signal or throttle output signal to allow detection of the problem.

So it's understandable to me that Toyota and the NHTSA would brush off the initial reports of the sudden acceleration problems, but after there is a clear statistical difference with complaints pointing to the drive-by-wire systems on certain vehicles, they should re-open the issue and dig deeper into improving the software and/or hardware. I also agree that it sounds like a very difficult problem to track down since it may not be repeatable. How can you fix a problem if you can't repeat it to find the problem or to test that you've fixed it, right? All the more reason to have additional safety checks in the software to drop the throttle in certain scenarios (like gas and brake simultaneously).

That is why for decades whether it be NASA, Sully Sullivan, NASCAR, professional sports players and all drivers to a degree should practice and, should be in drivers-ed, is to build up through practice, what is goes by a number of names, over learning, muscle memory, the over learning of the procedures to be followed when something goes wrong. The instinct reaction then becomes to follow the procedure you practiced for the occasion.

A few examples to practice in a safe area e.g. large parking lots, etc.

Stops hard enough to activate the ABS system.. Lots of folks get spooked just from the sounds it makes..

Spins on slippery surfaces

Brake failure, stopping with the hand brakes, lower gears.

and course how to kill the engine quickly.

There was a series of articles written in AUTOWEEK about this and a number of journalists have commented about giving their 16 year old kids for their birthday present, a closed circuit, professional driver training course where the above and more activities are practiced.. A lot of the kids commented about after having taken the course that they were much more mindful and respectful of the dangers in driving and thought the course was a great experience for them.

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My overall contention is that as cars have become much, much safer, it seems human instinct has become to assume they are infallible.. There have been a number of articles published in car magazines and other auto enthusiast water holes contending that has cars have become safer, a lot of people are taking more chances with borderline reckless driving on the premise that my car will protect me. They are still deadly machines when certain things go wrong.

In today's world with cell phones, mp3 players ,sometimes even with books and newspapers, some folks consider driving a part time activity, while engaged in more "important" activites.

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>>>*Pretty good soap box, too! I agree completely, threre should be training, more training, and then about the time someone is so highly trained that we can be sure they will do the right thing, train them some more. Especially police, firefighters, anyone that can expect to find themselves in an upset condition.

I remember one old coot (even older old coot than me!) out at the racetrack, we were chatting as we watched our kids get ready to head out onto the short track and wreck stuff.

He told me that he thought that everyone should have to climb into one of those old cars and make some laps at a miminum speed before they ever got a license to be on the highway. While being booted around by someone following them with experience.

I asked him why, telling him that would be kinda expensive.

He said he figured with the reduction in the number of deaths and accidents, it might just be cheaper, since 99.9% of the drivers on the highway can't drive...at all.

*Like the guy yesterday on I-5 that passed us on the way home. I saw his left turn signal come on behind me, he pulled over to the left and sailed by and on down the road, cell phone in hand. He was in one of those Toyota Raves, I think they are called?

I was doing 75 at the time.......in the left hand lane... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />...*EB

If we charged as much to get a driver's license here as you do as a civilian in Germany, we'd have a LOT less issues too. Costs about $1500. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

>>>*That might thin out the highway traffic for sure. *Probably put more people on bikes, too, which would made the Portland city fathers happy.

Lord, I hope they don't get any more ideas though.

One thing about Germany, they have places where 100 MPH and up is legal, I understand? I could deal with that, I am perfectly comfortable running at very high speeds, I would think nothing of doing 130 to 140 on the freeway it they weren't full of....well...full...*LOL**.

I see now the Prius is getting recalled for brakes? What's up with brakes being tied into and controlled by the throttle and trying to recharge batteries?

If I step on the brakes, I want them to be just brakes, I don't want some computer to decide when and how much. Same with the gas, if I want the tires to spin I want to be able to, I have been in situations where that was an asset, and allowed for car control. Computers? Yea, sure, just what we need is a blue screen when we need the brakes real bad.

My Corvette has a button I can push that lets ME drive, not the dang computer. The Impala doesn't and I hate that, but it's front wheel drive which is goofy anyway..

*My age is showing here, isn't it?...*LOL**....*EB

Operationally the Prius has a longer travel on the brake pedal before the hydraulic brakes kick in business as usual.

On that upper part of the initial brake pedal travel, it senses that movement in the brake pedal and progressively uses the main MG to brake the car and recover the kinetic energy.

btw recovering rather than dumping the braking energy accounts for the largest part of a hybrid's fuel economy increase.

Below 7 miles per hour there is no MG braking at all, it's all mechanical.. and even in this mode, I can't feel any difference in how the brakes apply, other than the light mechanical sound you get of the pads rubbing the rotors..

You can't feel the transition (at least I can't on my 2006 Prius) from motor/gen braking to normal hydraulic braking..

Hit the pedal hard and it's hydraulic braking business as usual.

On the 2010, if you are in the MG braking, and hit ice, slick surface, etc. or any rough enough surface where the wheels are off the pavement enough to induce ABS, as you are transitioning from light braking to heavier braking, there is a perceptable lag feel stated to be about 1 second, as it transitions from MG braking to hydraulic braking while the ABS is active.

From what I have read this is a software fix to take the lag out..

I get a bit of that same sensation in the ABS on my 4Runner.. which other people have commented years back on all vehicles with ABS that it takes a longer distance to stop with ABS than without due to that sensation.

Braking comparison tests some years back indicate that is not true, with 1 exception.. If you are stopping in heavy mud, where locked up wheels will pile mud in front of the locked tire, then ABS takes more distance than without. Of course, still lots of debates about this one. If I'm about to slide off a cliff, I think I ummmm, prefer the brakes locked solid..

With regard to brake / throttle tie in, there isn't one at present time.. It's being talked about as another way to fail safe all drive by wire throttle systems, if brakes and throttle are applied at the same time, the ECU kills the input to the throttle..

"With regard to brake / throttle tie in, there isn't one at present time.. It's being talked about as another way to fail safe all drive by wire throttle systems, if brakes and throttle are applied at the same time, the ECU kills the input to the throttle.."

>>>*Thanks, Dandeman! I guess I really didn't understand what they were talking about with the modern braking systems.

*So it's actually pedal travel that engages the electric motor recovery, not a computer? That seems lots better.

I don't quite understand how hitting a bump could affect the braking but the reports are that this is what happens.

*Our GM system on the Impala SS does something odd if we hit a bump, on heavy braking the Stabiltrac light blinks on and the pedal drops an inch or so. Unnerving the first time it happened, but I think it's the antilock system coming in.

That is a weird feeling, almost as bad as the zero effect of letting off the gas, the thing just keeps going, the feel is almost like it actually speeds up. It took me quite a long time to learn to let off the gas partway first, then brake when going into any tight turns.

The sensation is slightly similar to a stuck throttle, then the instinct is to over brake when make the machine feel like it wants to go into a push. I wonder if that is what some people experience as the throttle hanging up?

I just drive it like I would a fast race car, float the throttle, then tease the brakes gradually instead of coming down against compression and then braking. The feeling when driving it like a RWD is insecurity, the engine RPM's are all over the place.

*Transmission releasing to save fuel, I guess....*EB