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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump ... UPDATE #2.
#997281
05/18/10 06:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 683
OP
Rock Warrior
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First of all... Thanks again fasteddy!!!! The starter trick worked like a charm for loosening the crank pulley bolt, and I followed your 'recommendations' for what needed to be removed to get the front of the engine torn down to get to the timing belt, etc., Awesome as usual <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> 1989 V6 - rebuilt 80K miles ago, original old crank bolt. compression 140 135 145 140 130 140. There was an obvious valve cover gasket leak and I left the engine dirty to make sure I saw any/all leaks or other issues, so please excuse the mess... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" /> I also discovered that there must have been a coolant leak for some time that has caused accelerated corrosion and white deposits to exposed components in the engine bay. I see a lot of dried coolant underneath where both the upper and lower rad hoses were clamped to the engine, probably loose/ineffective clamps. The moisture under the crank nose is just PB Blaster used to remove the HB. ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/41643/2106590840101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) During this first round of much needed service I will be replacing the water pump/water return hose/timing belt tensioner, spring and pulley/crank and cam seals/harmonic balancer(low mile used)/crank bolt and washer/dizzy oring/valve cover gaskets(leaking badly)/etc. Now onto the Questions: 1. Are there any tips, tricks or particular tools required to removing the cam and crank seals without scratching the cam/crank nose? (I will be applying oil to inner surface of new seal and sealant to outer surface) 2. Is sealant required when installing the new water pump? (The dealer water pump kit I have includes a gasket but I can see that sealant was used to mate the two halves of water pump by the rebuilder and wonder if it is necessary, see lower right in pic) ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/25056/2509168070101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) 3. Any tricks to getting and keeping the engine at TDC while putting on the timing belt? 4. Could this buildup behind the waterpump be caused by the leaking rad hose clamps? drivers side ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/17654/2806595740101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) passenger side ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/13663/2727532760101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) wide shot ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/44613/2153362590101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) water pipe in valley ![[Linked Image]](http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/37921/2798456740101374953S600x600Q85.jpg) 5. Any other words of wisdom? Once I finish Service Part 1 I will be removing the Intake Plenum (to deal with the carbon buildup), replacing the intake manifold and valve cover gaskets as well as the dizzy o-ring....
Last edited by fhuzz; 06/09/10 04:08 PM.
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: fhuzz]
#997282
05/18/10 09:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,006
Body Damage is Cool
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I pull small seals with this: http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=365I have also drilled the outer metal ring of the seal and screwed in a sheet metal screw then pulled on that with vice grips.
92 Montero LS 3.0L V6 Auto, Stock, Original owner, 185,800K miles
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: fhuzz]
#997283
05/18/10 10:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
Web Wheeler
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The corrosion on the aluminum outlet is normal - just clean it up with a scotchbrite pad. 1. Are there any tips, tricks or particular tools required to removing the cam and crank seals without scratching the cam/crank nose? If you're careful, you might be able to grab the seal with one of those offset combination phillips/flat screwdrivers like this: web page Sometimes, I just use a straight screwdriver and pry the seal out. (I will be applying oil to inner surface of new seal and sealant to outer surface) You can smear a little RTV on the outer surface, but don't use oil on the inner surface..... use wheel bearing grease instead on the cam journal and the seal lip. It'll lubricate better/longer until the oil pressure is up on restart. It's also a good practice to pack the rear cavity of the seal with the same bearing grease to help contain the spring on installation. 2. Is sealant required when installing the new water pump? On your engine, it would be wise. First, run a tap into all of the water pump block holes, then clean the flanges on the front of the block really well. Scrape that area near the opening that's so rusty and flaking so it doesn't cause the pump to seal badly. That area may need some careful attention to make sure you get a good seal. The factory gaskets are good, but I still use an anerobic sealant on both sides of the gasket..... RTV should also work..... smear it all over the gasket with your fingers. 3. Any tricks to getting and keeping the engine at TDC while putting on the timing belt? No tricks needed to get it to stay there - it will. Install the crankshaft sprocket with a light smear of anti-seize, remove the spark plugs, install the old crank bolt and turn the engine over with a ratchet/socket until the mark on the sprocket is aligned with the mark on the oil pump. Put the belt in place on the crank sprocket, align the driver side cam sprocket first, then the passenger side (with the tensioner bolt and spring loose). Install the tensioner spring, snug the tensioner a little and rotate the engine a few times to make sure the marks are all aligned on the crank and cam sprockets, then torque the tensioner to final value. 4. Could this buildup behind the waterpump be caused by the leaking rad hose clamps? drivers side Maybe, maybe not - just clean it up as best you can and make sure the pump flanges sit flat without rocking. I have had to use a grinder in that area on a couple of blocks. The factory didn't do a real good job of machining some of them. Before you try to start the engine, check the distributor clocking. Frank
'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: FrankR]
#997284
05/18/10 11:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Mudrunner
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I use a pneumatic tool w/ either scotch-brite pads or a finger disc to clean surfaces. It may take a little longer but there is a lot less danger of removing too much surface area. I don't recommend RTV on any gasket in the cooling loop; RTV tends to come off & get in the cooling water. I use weatherstrip adhesive on water pump gaskets.
Va_Stumpy 89 Raider "Never judge horsepower by exhaust" 3.0 automatic stock as a rock Dual Bouncy Seats
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: Va_Stumpy]
#997285
05/19/10 12:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,269
Roll Me Over
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I've done this job a few times on both the 3.0 and the 3.5. I would say there are more than one way to skin a cat. That being said, get the mating sufaces as clean as you can. I like to use a razor blade scraper to get as much as I can off before resorting to any powered devices. On my last job I was able to get the block really clean without any power tool use. The goal being not to distort the mounting surface. I like to Use RTV as well but in a very minimal ammout to reduce the amount that will squeeze out and get into the coolant. Pay close attention to the condition of the water pipe that connects to the back of the housing. If its corroded you should replace it.
Good call on replacing the Crank bolt. Be carefull when installing the cam seals. If you punch them in too far on the passenger side, it will go all the way in and off the mating suface, and you'll ruin it trying to get it out...Good luck. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
99 Gen 2.5, fixing blown head gasket 89 SWB- 33's, ARB Front locker, SR rear locker/axle, SR F brakes, winch, WST Offroad Armor all Around, 2.85 Aussie T-case Gears (SOLD) Sold: (2) 95 SR's, 86 SWB, 90LWB, 91 LWB -Can Change a timing belt in my sleep..
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: justice]
#997286
05/19/10 01:27 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Mudrunner
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Skin it any way you like.... but how do you determine what is a "minimal"amount of RTV? It breaks down & comes a loose in an antifreeze mixture.I can't believe that as smart as you guys are that you still recommend it on a cooling loop. It works great on valve cover gaskets & oil pans . Are ya'll getting some endorsements that I'm missing out on? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Va_Stumpy; 05/19/10 01:28 AM.
Va_Stumpy 89 Raider "Never judge horsepower by exhaust" 3.0 automatic stock as a rock Dual Bouncy Seats
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: FrankR]
#997287
05/19/10 01:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 683
OP
Rock Warrior
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Who needs a shop manual with the generous help here... Thanks Frank!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> ...and I thought I was doing this job alone <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The corrosion on the aluminum outlet is normal - just clean it up with a scotchbrite pad. [color:"blue"] Will do.[/color] 1. Are there any tips, tricks or particular tools required to removing the cam and crank seals without scratching the cam/crank nose? If you're careful, you might be able to grab the seal with one of those offset combination phillips/flat screwdrivers like this: web page Sometimes, I just use a straight screwdriver and pry the seal out. [color:"blue"] Thanks for this info! I also asked my neighbour if he happened to have a seal puller and he actually has one that looks like a double-sided hook that might help. It's similar to the twisted screwdriver but much narrower with a coating on the removal surfaces.[/color] (I will be applying oil to inner surface of new seal and sealant to outer surface) You can smear a little RTV on the outer surface, but don't use oil on the inner surface..... use wheel bearing grease instead on the cam journal and the seal lip. It'll lubricate better/longer until the oil pressure is up on restart. It's also a good practice to pack the rear cavity of the seal with the same bearing grease to help contain the spring on installation. [color:"blue"] Excellent advice as usual! I would have never thought to use grease, let alone filling the seals spring cavity with grease to keep the spring in place during installation. I have some Permatex "The Right Stuff" that I'll use for the outer seal surfaces and valve cover corners, etc.[/color] 2. Is sealant required when installing the new water pump? On your engine, it would be wise. First, run a tap into all of the water pump block holes, then clean the flanges on the front of the block really well. Scrape that area near the opening that's so rusty and flaking so it doesn't cause the pump to seal badly. That area may need some careful attention to make sure you get a good seal. The factory gaskets are good, but I still use an anerobic sealant on both sides of the gasket..... RTV should also work..... smear it all over the gasket with your fingers. [color:"blue"] Just looked up anerobic sealant, "Suggested Applications: Water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans, transmission case covers, transaxle casings, o-ring replacement". Guess what I'll be using there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />[/color] 3. Any tricks to getting and keeping the engine at TDC while putting on the timing belt? No tricks needed to get it to stay there - it will. Install the crankshaft sprocket with a light smear of anti-seize, remove the spark plugs, install the old crank bolt and turn the engine over with a ratchet/socket until the mark on the sprocket is aligned with the mark on the oil pump. Put the belt in place on the crank sprocket, align the driver side cam sprocket first, then the passenger side (with the tensioner bolt and spring loose). Install the tensioner spring, snug the tensioner a little and rotate the engine a few times to make sure the marks are all aligned on the crank and cam sprockets, then torque the tensioner to final value. [color:"blue"] Besides gouging the cam/crank seal mating surfaces, this is (I mean was <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> )the most challenging aspect of this whole thing. When they say a picture is worth a thousand words, what about the 20 words that paints a picture worth a thousand words... now that's what I call interest.[/color] 4. Could this buildup behind the waterpump be caused by the leaking rad hose clamps? drivers side Maybe, maybe not - just clean it up as best you can and make sure the pump flanges sit flat without rocking. I have had to use a grinder in that area on a couple of blocks. The factory didn't do a real good job of machining some of them. [color:"blue"] Yeah, I'll clean those areas up with some gentle scraping and scotch brite pads and see how much more they'll need. Hopefully I can stay away from the grinder... I can get a little over-zealous at times, haha.[/color] Before you try to start the engine, check the distributor clocking. [color:"blue"] Will do.[/color] Frank
'89 Monty LWB auto, 3rd row seating, 95SR rear + coils, genII UCA's and calipers/rotors, dual bouncies.
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: pcc]
#997288
05/19/10 01:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 683
OP
Rock Warrior
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Thanks Pcc for the reference and the ideas. Led me in the direction of my neighbour who has a slightly different seal removal tool, that has potential... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
'89 Monty LWB auto, 3rd row seating, 95SR rear + coils, genII UCA's and calipers/rotors, dual bouncies.
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: Va_Stumpy]
#997289
05/19/10 01:49 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 683
OP
Rock Warrior
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Hey VA_Stumpy, I've got some scotch-brite-like grinding pads that are designed for small areas of auto body work... removable with reverse-threaded mounting base for use on a power drill/dremel/etc. I think they're similar to what you're talking about and probably less likely to do quick damage than me getting my grubby hands on a grinder, Thanks! I use a pneumatic tool w/ either scotch-brite pads or a finger disc to clean surfaces. It may take a little longer but there is a lot less danger of removing too much surface area. I don't recommend RTV on any gasket in the cooling loop; RTV tends to come off & get in the cooling water. I use weatherstrip adhesive on water pump gaskets.
'89 Monty LWB auto, 3rd row seating, 95SR rear + coils, genII UCA's and calipers/rotors, dual bouncies.
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Re: Crank/Cam seals and Timing Belt/Water Pump questions... Service Part 1.
[Re: justice]
#997290
05/19/10 02:15 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 683
OP
Rock Warrior
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Thanks for this info Justice! I've done this job a few times on both the 3.0 and the 3.5. I would say there are more than one way to skin a cat. That being said, get the mating sufaces as clean as you can. I like to use a razor blade scraper to get as much as I can off before resorting to any powered devices. On my last job I was able to get the block really clean without any power tool use. The goal being not to distort the mounting surface.
[color:"blue"] To clean and not distort is the goal, check!.[/color]
I like to Use RTV as well but in a very minimal ammout to reduce the amount that will squeeze out and get into the coolant. Pay close attention to the condition of the water pipe that connects to the back of the housing. If its corroded you should replace it.
[color:"blue"] This water pipe is corroded on mine, but it seems to only be surface rust. I'll check it out more closely and see how badly corroded it is and if it's too far gone I'll definitely replace it if it's still available... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> .[/color] Good call on replacing the Crank bolt. Be carefull when installing the cam seals. If you punch them in too far on the passenger side, it will go all the way in and off the mating suface, and you'll ruin it trying to get it out...Good luck. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] See, I would have had to learn this the hard way as my neighbor insisted that "all seals have a backing area so you're supposed to punch them in until they stop..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />[/color] [/quote]
'89 Monty LWB auto, 3rd row seating, 95SR rear + coils, genII UCA's and calipers/rotors, dual bouncies.
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